Will Ireland's corporation tax survive?


#605

It looks like FG want to appeal against raising 13 billion (plus interest) that the once eternally wise EC has told them…if they thought water charges were a tough sell on the doorsteps! 1% effective tax rate after telling everyone they were fighting to defend 12.5% !

They need their heads examined. Marching to electoral doom on the hundredth anniversary of the Somme.

The only grace is that FF and Labour are rowing in. Yes f**king Labour want to not collect corporation tax

Noonan is trying to steamroll a quick cabinet decision. If IA are smart they’ll delay ask for a Dail debate, and start asking whether this whole debacle is an example of Regulatory Capture, which to me it is.

Another thing to mention - The Irish Taxation system has been stuck in a sick malaise for at least the last 20 years that the Big 4 firms write/suggest huge swathes of the Finance Act each year.

Edit - remembering the concerted briefing campaign about how inept Shane Ross was on Brazilian thing it will be interesting to see whether Noonan get x thousand a lashing from INM and the IT for a thousand times bigger f**k up on his watch


#606

I’m not the biggest fan of Noonan but I don’t see how he is responsible for this. Apple isn’t the first corporations that’s been called out for tax avoidance recently , hopefully Ireand can negotiate the bill down. Yes it is slightly perverse but we have benefited greatly from investment from multinationals and need to protect this.

All that being said things are changing and Ireland and these global multinationals are going to have to get with the program now.


#607

DoF responsible and previous MoFs perhaps more than noonan. If you’re going to set up competitive tax, you mess up when you then wander into state aid rules. This could have been done and kept within tax domain and the case couldn’t have been brought. However, folk messed up.

It is, however, perverse that anyone would now be saying ‘I hope the bill gets reduced’. Whether the bill is EUR 1 or eur11bn if the judgement stands then we can’t do this sweetheart favouritism going forward. Nothing in this that stops competitive tax rates. Just can’t play favourites.


#608

I always laugh when ministers are questioned about EU investigations into Government activities and they usually respond with bluster and dismiss the question out of hand. Here’s one for posterity

Noonan confident Apple Tax offering does not breach rules

irishtimes.com/business/econ … -1.1838848

Plenty more to be found around Irish Water borrowing off balance sheet, Suspension of water charges and Minimum alcohol pricing. For all the EU’s faults I love them for giving our parish pump corporate whore politicians a kicking every now and then.


#609

It was almost certainly BG Turnkey who Microsoft farmed out their Sandyford documentation and media manufacturing to in the early 90s. BG Turnkey were originally Irish, with their HQ next door to Apple in Hollyhill, Cork, until they themselves were taken over by an American corporate in 1995. In 2006 a large chunk of their manufacturing was moved to the Czech Republic. I guess BG were an MNC in the strict sense of the word, but their business was crumbs from the table of other MNCs and their aggressive cost controls reflected that.

A mate of mine worked on the production line for Microsoft when they manufactured their own media and docs in Sandyford. He got his foot in the door of a desk job just before BG Turnkey came in, and is still there 25 years on with mainly on-the-job experience/qualifications. I would guess he earns 80-90k which I would consider not bad.


#610

Yes! that’s a name from the past! I remember it now (the turnkey bit at least) but I’d never have recalled it.

Had a friend working there as a summer job or something years back (maybe 1995 ish). Didn’t like it much. It struck me at the time even as an example of how low-tech and crappy some “high tech MNC” jobs were and also looked like a bit of a cover-story for tax-avoidance or something (much like the pool-hall I used to play in always seemed too quiet (and too cheap) to be a real business and I always assumed it was money laundering… and years later it was in the news and turned out to be location of a bunch of corrupt property/development dealing).


#611

Still can’t remember the company name. They operated out of a derelict looking but otherwise non-descript commercial building on one of the avenues in Sandyford.


#612

Independent Alliance refuses to back FG plan to appeal Apple ruling

irishtimes.com/news/politics … -1.2774281


#613

Principled, or just lining up to lobby for shares of the €13B for their constituencies? :nin


#614

If I hear 1 more FGer say ‘we can’t be the global tax policemen for Apples profits’.
That cretin Brian hayes on The Last Word now mouthing it off…Pascal O’Donoghue and Richard Bruton had the same spiel over and over again this AM.

It’s pure BS…if you allow Apple to book it’s Global Revenue’s through an office in Dublin, then it gets taxed here. Or thats my simpleton reading of it


#615

It’s what’s done now. It’s what should have been done then.

Logically the second should follow the first.


#616

Another simpleton question

Noonan & FG are repeating that Apple did not get a special deal

Does the EU ruling completely contradict this is (i.e. they’re lying) or are they deliberately using semantics to avoid it technically being a lie?


#617

They didn’t get a deal from Government (on paper anyway). Revenue allowed them to interpret things in a unique way that was contradictory to the spirit of the law.

That’s my understanding.


#618

It is a lie at every level. Revenue agreed to calculate their tax based on their expenses rather than their profits. This is unheard of as far as I know.


#619

Why is there even a debate about this? How is the non-existent head office not paying tax because it didn’t exist not the screaming headline here? Even the FT barely mentions it, I genuinely dont understand this.


#620

Robbed from boards. :angry:
https://www.anphoblacht.com/files/images/620/2016/AppleHQ1.jpg


#621

+1
also, look at this post/thread: viewtopic.php?p=889370#p889370

I’ve listened to various radio emissions (word chosen) today and yesterday on this. It boils down to politicians of the FG hue trotting out the line above, combined with tax-experts from likes of Grant Thornton, PWC, etc., giving a spiel “nothing to see here”.

They’re not so much telling lies as denying reality. It’s Comical Ali territory. However, it’s no so comical when you’re locked in the asylum with them and outfits like RTE are rowing in behind it too. Brian Hayes was on Right Hook this evening, the very last thing he was going to do was cite elements of the finding that were wrong. I’m sure he hasn’t even read it.

What I would so much want the interview to do is go exactly on that line. “What parts do you feel are incorrect, in detail?” “waffle”, “do you disagree with point A”, etc., “have you read the report Brian”, “is it appropriate for you to come on to the national airwaves to express opinion without even reading the finding”. Fantasy land of course.

This isn’t even about tax avoidance, nor is it about our tax rates. It’s about another type of cronyism, it’s about yet more regulatory capture, it’s about unfairness, it’s about not having formal rules and processes, it’s about being half-assed and then just trying to lie/distract your way out of this. It’s about hoping that folk don’t reason and apply logic.

but do read observer35’s post linked above… read the finding too and make up your own mind.


#622

Brian Hayes is a Class “A” fantasist (0:25)… watch the cogs turn when faced with the reality.


#623

Well, no, that’s not the way I understand it - I think there are two elements - the stateless corporation (Apple not HQ’d in Ireland, so profits outside Ireland are not taxed in Ireland, but in country of HQ. That there was no HQ, not Ireland’s business - that appears to be the main source of Ireland’s defence). Second - the whole “what’s a profit anyway” thing - this is a much wider issue and is at the heart of the headquartering in Ireland, I think this is what the EU are really after and where the Revenue are on ropey ground.

But I haven’t been paying that much attention; my yellow-pack MNC job is keeping me busy :neutral_face:


#624

Prepare to be amazed:

Quite unprecedented AFAIK.