WIW - 63 Dartmouth Square South

myhome.ie/residential/brochu … -6/3595616

Any views on why this would be going to auction and what that might say about the direction of the market. Obviously they are looking for a quick sale - 3 weeks isn’t a lot for people to inspect title and survey etc in advance of an auction.

From my limited knowledge would have thought the guidance of €1.40 seems reasonable on a relative basis - with south facing garden whereas the more expensive No.32 at €1.55 had a north facing garden (admittedly larger with mews potential).

the mews site might have been worth maybe 300k but then again the basement was a separate flat so the refurb cost might 200k

garden is south east - not bad orientation but not perfect

Guide prices are just that - guides! They more often than not bear little resemblance to the final sale price. As this is the first auction (and maybe only auction) of the year, they’ll be guiding a price that will generate interest to ensure the auction isn’t a total flop. If it was private treaty they’d be asking a higher price.

Nice house, but with 3 single bedrooms and not a decent bathroom in the place (possibly 2 of the smallest I’ve ever seen in a house of this calibre), it isn’t going to appeal to everyone. I like the garden structure (‘mews’).

i was going by this house earlier and i noticed that there seems to be no external access via the basement at the front - well at least from the road no steps are visible up to the garden - i guess this would limit frontal access to the main door up the steps - not ideal for anyone with small kids - you would either need to come through the back garden and across the grass or lug them up the stairs at the front.

That side of the square is like a main road. It’s the perfect location if you enjoy watching family cars take to two wheels around the roundabout and then catch some air time off the completely ineffective speed bumps.

My god - an auction of a +1m house in Dublin !!

We were so close to running the full core buying season without one (first since the GFC).

This will sell at 1.4m (and above).

Because there have been no auctions this year in the upper end, room will be packed (50% EAs), so it will be an “atmosphere”.

Guidance is credible and not too ambitious.

seems the main bathroom is in the outhouse

Went to the viewing earlier. It’s a nice house, no doubt about that. The drawbacks have already been identified in the form of the lack of a decent bathroom and the outhouse is a bit confused. I am not sure whether it could be converted into a mews.

The vendor is a well known solicitor who has been renting it while living elsewhere. Definitely not a distressed sale…I’m not sure why he is selling; perhaps he believes the market is on the cusp of tanking.

Plenty of interest at the viewing, drummed up no doubt by the guide price.

My sense is that the vendor will hope to get +€1.75m for it and is probably scratching his head at the guide price but it’s not a bad strategy.

Isn’t this a bit of a gamble, particularly for a non distressed vendor? Like what if the best bid is €1.42. Can they have a reserve which is way above the AMV? This is either a stroke of genius or quite the opposite - only have to wait three and half weeks to find out. As the only auction I’m aware of, I think it will have a material impact on the D4/D6 market over the summer.

They aren’t going to let this flop in an open auction room. Hence I agree this will sell for 1.8, 1.9+ and the press articles are already written for the front page of the Irish Times property supplement the day after - Dublin market overheating - D6 house sells at auction for 30% over asking. Economist Marian Finnegan says lack of supply of prime properties will lead to strong auction results for rest of summer.

irishtimes.com/life-and-styl … -1.1563237

The higher end Dublin auction market died last year and hasn’t appeared since.
The issue is the international slowdown (esp. London Property and Sterling weakness).
Ex pats / foreign buyers are a (the) critical driver of Dublin higher end market.
This segment doesn’t work well with auctions (they can’t be there in time).

And it is much easier to bait them (“I have no offers”), and then ramp them up in 50k increments (“guy came in from nowhere”) via a constant stream of emails. (always funny when an ex pat goes sale “unagreed”, and then sees the house that he was bidding on furiously by email in 50k lots, go back on market, for another 12 months!?!).

HOWEVER, it helps when the ex pats can be shown some local auction headlines.

This will sell above guide (obviously), and the mews can give it an extra oomph that can be naughtily employed to set new benchmarks for ex. pats / foreigners etc.

After a pretty meagre start to 2016, also clear that Sherry Fitz want to get a good news headline into the market before June, for the Autumn selling season. This auction will be packed (every high end EA and many high end buyers will attend regardless of interest), so SF would not risk unless they were very sure of getting a very strong result.

viewed it yesterday

firstly no “mews” - its an outhouse - no planning or indeed possibility of mews conversions

I think this is a clever move by SF.

Auctions can provide (a) a bonus price to the vendor and (b) priceless publicity for the agent (c) a bonus agents commission for achieving a good price for the vendor

No 63 is very likely to achieve all of the above - an interesting thread below on the “frenzy” an auction can create - SoDuCo’s last post in this thread sums up what can happen.


IT article :
irishtimes.com/life-and-styl … -1.1730981

Interesting 2 more houses in lesson st (both arguably better corner sites – in the same Leeson Street off street development – have been recently on the market
The arguably more attractive 69 (and larger)got 1,950

propertypriceregister.ie/We … enDocument

and 65 A – corner site – is on sale for months with no bids – asking 1,9
myhome.ie/residential/brochu … -4/3474146

Will be a fun auction – my guess - the reserve is 1,7 and it will go - on a very very good day - for around 1,8 - eg a bonus price that purchasers would not pay in private treaty

Just as a stark reminder of the state (and weirdness) of the market, a look back 2 years ago:
irishtimes.com/life-and-styl … -1.1812501

45 properties had been auctioned in Dublin (in non-Allsop) auctions between March, April & May 2014. Is the figure 0 this year, as 63 Dartmouth isn’t to be auctioned until June, or are there auctions of smaller value properties? None come to mind, so unless there’s been some cheaper ones it’s clear that practically nobody is willing to chance the auction route in this uncertain and unstable market.

Higher-end Dublin EAs have had much more success baiting ex. pat / foreign bidders (“I have no bids on this, if I were you I would throw in something”), and then ramping them by e-mail in +50k lots (“I’m surprised myself, two have come back to me out of nowhere, their architect is in there now, what is your new bid?”).

The fall in London property and Sterling in 2015/2016, has really affected this flow of cash into Dublin high-end (key source of Irish ex-pats). In Q1 this year, when world markets were falling hard, there was real panic amongst Dublin EAs.

If there is a material issue with the house (poor garden / aspect, non-prime location, very difficult layout, needs huge work), then you can get no-bids (and in some cases, no bidders in attendance). at high-end Dublin auctions.

63 Dartmouth Square has no such material issues, and is a critical auction in this regard by the main agent (Sherry Fitz), with the most amount of unsold stock on the market (as their askings are most out of kilter with the market).

They will have at least one very strong bid here in the bag, and the auction process (the room will be packed with EAs, given it’s the only one this year), will try and replicate the “pressure” auctions of late 2013/ early 2014.

I’m sure the bubble media (who will also be in attendance at SF’s request), are primed to write the headline, and pronounce how “pleasantly surprised Sherry Fitzgerald was with the undeniable strength been shown in Dublin higher-end market, but that “canny buyers” are still “snapping up” real “bargains” when compared to the peaks of the naughties”.

is this really the high end though - eg the 2mm plus market which is really STG dependent

agree they likely have an offer from the pre market viewings that they want to increase but its an unusual layout and wont suit a lot of people - the irony if it fell flat ! (the journo’s of course wont use that for their “copy” )

You are right gerrymac - the c 50 per annum sales above 2m are the “high-end”.
However, the Irish “bubble media” will quote this as “high-end” regardless.
(they usually will take anything over 1.5m on the basis that it is 3.5x 350 salary + deposit etc., when it suits the “bubble” narrative).

Was at an auction last year sitting right behind a “bubble media” journalist. There were no bids at the auction (ignoring a very low humorous one, that attractive the immediate scorn of the EA).

Doubtless to say there was no mention of the failed auction in the next day’s paper (or any other day, or even even in the subsequent write up that the house got by the same “journalist” when it was put back on private treaty).


Warm feelings its like we never left.

Mr P.Hantom is being raised from the dead ( He never went away I hear you from the back of the room )

It is a crazy system in Ireland that bidders are asked to spend money on house surveys and solicitors before bidding WITHOUT knowing the price at which the house will actually sell at (or above, depending on bids).

The “AMV” is a marketing tool that Irish agents use with a view to getting the fullest room / most bids possible.

Full rooms = pressure atmosphere = premium bids.

There is no greater coup for an agent, then to put up a house for 1.4m that will really go for +1.7m and have the +1.7m bidders hear of lots of bids starting at 1.2m (for some weird reason, Irish resi auctions always start materially below the AMV, and also after waiting an eternity to get the first bid, no matter how low that AMV is.) and then rushing up (and past) their target. It is like getting the bidders to climb Mount Everest. When they are on the summit ridge, despite the fact that their oxygen (i.e. cash) is dangerously low, they can still press on to the final prize, having spent the time and money to get there.

I don’t know why we bother with this process, or why people bother attending it.

If you aren’t prepared to pay AT LEAST +1.65m here, don’t waste the fees and time.

What is unusual is that usually the agents would use a “hot” auction such as 63 Dartmouth to set up another +2.5m AMV auction (nothing like seeing a +1m house blasting past its AMV, to get the even richer pockets loosened up more.). However the +2m high-end - outside of perfect houses - is now so dependent on ex-pats / overseas, that the risk of no-bids is just too high.

More auctions coming:

Grasmere, Greenfield Road, Sutton, Dublin 13
AMV: €1,200,000 - 7 Bed Detached House 507.24 m² / 5460 ft² For Sale By Auction
myhome.ie/residential/brochu … 13/3615986

119 Anglesea Road, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4
AMV: €1,100,000 - 4 Bed Terraced House 250 m² / 2691 ft² For Sale By Auction
myhome.ie/residential/brochu … -4/3615839

66 Claremont Road, Sandymount, Dublin 4
AMV: €900,000 - 5 Bed Terraced House 195.1 m² / 2100 ft² For Sale By Auction
myhome.ie/residential/brochu … -4/3615834

The latter in Sandymount has been sale on and off since 2009. See:

I think this will go for 16-1650

above that would be a very very strong price

Hopes may rise on the Grasmere?