WIW - 63 Dartmouth Square South

glad someone else here knows the facts

i think its not mad to say that if they had 6 renovated houses on dartmouth square south yesterday, they would have sold them all

there’s clearly pent up demand and lots of irish money out there

Did anyone else from the office join up yesterday lads?


I think the high-end market has strengthened over the past few months. I tracked a few houses in this range over the past few weeks and I was surprised by the level of interest and strength of bidding.

And just to jump in ahead of Observer35 - buyers were not all stupid ex-pats, fickle foreigners or idiots that don’t use the internet :slight_smile:

Okay, getting a bit surreal now (someone who just joined the PIN yesterday posing as a casual by-stander, showing unusual skill with the “quote” function (and some other aspects), and using classic Dublin EA phrases like “no shortage of money in the room”, plus lacking the math that 6 is bigger than “a handful” ?).

I digress. Let’s re-cap on the facts of the 63 Dartmouth Square auction (vs. the spin you will read in the Irish bubble media).

And remember, 63 Dartmouth Square was THE upper-end Dublin auction for 2016 in the sub 2m category.

  1. True AMV was c. 1.7m (i.e. never going to be sold < 1.7m. refer to SoCoDu’s comments above). Anything below 1.7m would have been a disaster, and worrying sign in the lower part of Dublin high-end (the upper part of the Dublin high-end (+2m), was analysed using scrubbed PPR data in this thread thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=65796).

  2. “Whisper” number was 2.1-2.2m. Back-up plan of low AMV of 1.4m allows EA to still claim a victory in Irish Times and Irish Independent “plant” articles. Bad that auctions are allowed without a True AMV being quoted (i.e. price at which property MUST sell). Unfair to all bidders wasting fees / time, to pack a room and get spurious headlines for Times and Indo.

  3. 1.92m sale price is a 0-0 draw. A little un-nerving that this is probably the best house in its price range in core Dublin in 2016 (renovated walk-in red-brick + good aspect + in core desirable Dublin area, with office in garden thrown in), so its like Germany getting a 0-0 draw vs. Ireland (from a German view). You expect more from these auctions at peak selling season.

  4. What was also disconcerting was that only two bidders drove pricing over the True AMV of 1.7m to final bid (don’t take my word. anybody with basic experience in the upper-end auctions / transactions, will understand the claim that 4 bidders at 1.8m, falling to one winner at 1.92m (6.6% later), is a rouse). One is an ex-pat (don’t know other).

  5. And thus we get to the above posts of “loads of Irish money” (emphasize “Irish”), “market strengthened in the last few months” (emphasise “last few”, as it has been falling), “loads of people who never got hands out of pockets … if auction not so strong” (classic EA term, implying depth of bidders. at 1.4m, half the EAs in the room (were a lot), would have bid).

  6. Proof of the “strength” of the 63 Dartmouth Square auction was that it inspired the Lisney team to knock 100k of the price of the similar (and in “mint” condition) 128 Tritonville Road Sandymount, that very afternoon after the auction ended. :angry: myhome.ie/residential/brochure/128-tritonville-road-sandymount-dublin-4/3460570

On to 24 Sydney Avenue Blackrock … True AMV … c. 1.75m (although muse aspect could add more).

(and we know there is at least one other bidder now who can hit this, although he will have to save up for the full renovation).

your rantings are completely unfounded

yes i managed to press the quote button

wheres my award…

i had already said that i didnt think 1.92 was a remarkable result,?

“anyone who knows the value of these kind of houses would know 1.92 isnt a shocking or insane price” thats what i said

look back at the last page… youre being contrarian for the sake of it when i was the first to point out that the price was normal before you or sodocu or anyone made the point

luan and terincognita both said the price was high after i said i thoght it was normal

i never heard a soul whisper 2.1-2.2 about this auction, actually i heard some very experienced agents say it would make less than what it actually made

never heard a single person say that it would make a number as high as 1.92 but they were wrong and it did but if anythng it exceeded expectations

as for your claim that there were only 2 bidders, this has been disproved by me and by another poster who attended the auction who has no affiliation with me

anyone at the auction who was paying attention can tell you there were 4 active bidders above 1.8 and even more above 1.7

likewise anyone who doubts that there arent plenty of irish people out there with millions to spend in either cash or credit on property is delusional

maybe there arent any here on this website (maybe there are)) but that doesnt mean there are none in the market , there are lots

there is a lot of activity from expats, its well recorded but there is activity from irish buyers too

when the sale goes through feel free to put your money where your mouth is and spend the fiver it takes to find out who bought it and let us know if it was an expat

i dont know if it was an expat or not but theres as much of a chance that it was an irish person as an expat

the price reduction of the tritonville house is irrelevant, an overpricd house getting a price drop doesnt say anything about the market it just says something about the house

you constantly make vague claims that you cannot be held to such as claims of 2.1-2.2 whispers without stating who supposedly made the claims

you make claims about the numbers of bidders as nobody can provide physical evidence to go against your claims but its 2 v 1 against your claims now

it says a lot about this forum when a new poster joins and offers facts about an event that people on here were interestd in that they are shouted down by other posters who are spouting rubbish and who are not used to having people with real knowledge call them out on bull

your ‘rebuttals’ are unnecessary and contrarian,

ill be happy to stick around and i am not afraid to call people out on rubbish

why get so stressed when you are only a “spectator” with one thread to their name (<24 hours PIN membership) ?
it is only a job. retreat gracefully, and we will look forward to anticipating your next re-incarnation on the PIN.

im not stressed im just speaking the truth

the cracks in your supposed knowledge and facts are becoming apparent and others are starting to call our the flaws in your dumb expat narrative and incorrect accounts of ‘facts’

im not going anywhere but thanks for the offer

so let me guess …

you faxed the copy into the Irish Times lady with “Dartmouth Square house sells for almost 100% over 2012 price” complete with “money in room”, “kept hands in pockets”, “intense bidding”, “could have sold entire street” etc., but the Irish Times lady, who was made a fool of a few weeks ago with this “plant” thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?p=876285#p876285, checked on the PIN, and found that there was a different view.

now you are upset, and you reveal that (not only are you very proficient with the PIN), but that you are an expert on my posts and their “unwanted” conclusions in your office (the “others” in your post above), on the reliance of the Dublin +2m market on foreigners / ex-pats (which in one thread, we listed one by one, for the top 10 sales), and which EVERY EA knows is the case.

one day, a Central Bank regulator will realise that the core of the Irish property bubble was the fact that EAs are paid as % of price, and that EAs control all Irish Times and Irish Independent property reporting (and as we have seen, actually write the copy). When they fix this, we won’t have a EAs pumping prices - in fact, they might go the other direction - to push volume.

… I can dream.

I have learned a lot from your posts Observer, and always look forward to reading your opinion - so thank you for contributing and please don’t stop. However, it does seem (to me anyway) that you post with an agenda to undermine high-end sales. But then everyone with an opinion could appear to have an agenda (myself included), it’s just that so many of your posts follow the same format. I think I have come close to reverse engineering your favourite Pin-Post template below :wink:

O35 Template (Pre Sale):
Look at this house “A” asking €XXX

It’s a crazy asking price from 2014. Buyers should compare house “A” with houses “B”, “C”, “D” & “E” - all sold for €YYY less than €XXX and they are all
bigger, brighter, better, warmer, stronger, happier & sexier than house “A”.

The only hope for this vendor is to attract a wild bid from:

  1. A Stupid Ex-Pat
  2. A Fickle Foreigner
  3. An idiot that doesn’t know how to use the internet

O35 Template (Post Sale):
This house was bought by a

  1. A Stupid Ex-Pat
  2. A Fickle Foreigner
  3. An idiot that doesn’t know how to use the internet

They will be sick when they see that houses “B”, “C”, “D” & “E” all sold for €YYY less than €XXX

This sale will clearly be used by EA’s to wean cash out of other stupid, fickle idiots that don’t use the internet.

I’ve stocked up on popcorn so I can sit back and continue to enjoy this thread

okay, so Spectator1 has been sent home and told not to post on the PIN again without sign-off from BillG. All his aliases are to be closed down and/or handed over to BillG’s control. BillG will take it from here.

BillG then takes the Godfather Part 2 approach:

[Don Corleone]: So, Barzini will move against you first. He’ll set up a meeting with someone that you absolutely trust, guaranteeing your safety, and at that meeting you’ll be assassinated.

I will leave it to others (on the buy-side), to analyse my posts. Maybe they are not read that often, and perhaps, despite your feeling that my posts are agenda-driven / predictable / identical, you are my only audience on the PIN?

I would suggest that in relation to my posts on the Dublin high-end (my main foccus):

  1. I have decent record of “calling” out BS askings (and seeing them reduced) - I could list a lot here. Don’t know if the reductions are due to my posts (or if anybody reads them), but given my less fortunate circumstances, I enjoy it as an outlet.

  2. Less frequently (there are so few high-end Dublin auctions now, because of the increasing dominance of ex-pats / foreigners who can’t make them), I pick the ones with False AMVs (to save people money, and not be a pawn in the sell-side game). This thread above is a case in point ? For stating the final auction was only okay, I have attracted unilateral derision from the sell-side.

  3. Because I have so many contacts / history in this area, I do like to track the drivers / structure of the market. When I started pointing out a good while back the reliance of ex-pats / foreigners in Dublin high-end (which experienced EAs pointed out to me), it got resistance. Now every Dublin high-end EA knows this (and many state it publically). Above 3m, it is closing in on 50%. I have not called ex-pats / foreigners unilaterally stupid / fickle etc., (they are your words, chosen to dismiss my posts that you so enjoy reading), but at times, an ex-pat / foreigner gets nailed in Dublin high-end (and are stupid for not being better advised).

  4. As I have also posted, the large % of ex-pats / foreigners in the Dublin high-end is not necessarily an immediate negative. There are many scenarios, good and bad from this. However, by understanding the structure of the market, it helps you to understand various turning points (short and longer-term). For example, the ongoing slowdown in London property (and Sterling) is - I think - behind the verifiable slowdown in the Dublin high-end in 2015 (and continuing into 2016), as I posted and analysed at length thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=65796 (both at an overall market level, and with individual examples, which continue to grow into 2016). A major London property crash (London is the most extreme property bubble I have ever seen in my life, but so was Hong Kong 3 years ago and it never stopped), would have a major impact on Dublin high-end.

  5. There are loads of examples of high-end Dublin houses that go for big premiums that I never post on (regardless of whether an ex-pat / foreigner buys them or not). And I could also do a good list of Dublin high-end buyers who bought in 2010-2015, and who would not be able to exit at that price today (and they are certainly not all ex-pats / foreigners). But that is the case in any small private market (i.e. Dublin high-end where only about 30 genuine houses sell for over 2.5m), and where transactions are infrequent and there are liquidity issues on both the buy side (i.e. locals still not recovered / ex-pats affected by international markets) and sell-side (Irish banks don’t foreclose, hence large amount of high-end foreclosures yet to come). I know that EAs often get very excited after a certain high-end transactions, but then it doesn’t translate into follow-on (and the askings revert again). Rather than everybody sitting around with no transactions for a few months, better to call it, and move on.

Anyway, I do hope you find outlets, where you can enjoy things that you also respect, and that you can move on from my agenda-driven, biased, anti-foreigner / anti-ex-pat, technophobe hating, fact-less rants (as Spectator1 calls them).

Otherwise, you will end up … like me ?

(and seriously, this is my last post on this thread, what life I have left, I do value it … I leave the last words to you). :smiley:

do you ever tire of conspiracy theories…

please dont flatter yourself, im not an expert on your posts

i’m talking about what you have been spouting so far in this thread and cue your obsession with the media that you have talked about i dont know how many times in this thread

you said that sherry fitzgerald would request the media to be at the auction but now youre saying that me, a supposed agent by your accusation, is writing and faxing articles to the irish times… so which is it…

i have never heard of estate agents writing anything for newspapers apart from features from various industry people like kevin nowlan or coleman connor who put their names to articles

where is your proof or basis for any of these claims

let me guess… nothing… again

I attended the auction

I came across this site when I googled to see if it was reported it the press - couldn’t find any links - but top of the list was this thread - and I found it very amusing !

I live nearby to the house and went out of curiosity and to see what happens at an auction

I found it hard to follow who and exactly how many bidders were bidding - as it happened really quick

at one time when the auctioneer asked for 1,65 - 2 or 3 people raised hands and he seemed to get confused

I don’t know how many different bidders but it seemed from where I was that there were at least 6

The person that got it was one of the last ones to bid - in the very back of the room at the door - I am certain of this- I know who he is (and I was curious to see if he would bid as I was at school with his sisters )- he is definitely from Dublin (prominent / respected – house / apartment builders who I don’t think were ever in Nama etc ) and I also don’t think he is now an ex pat but he might be. What might have confused some people is that the man beside him was also bidding to the end and they looked very similar

As predicted

irishtimes.com/life-and-styl … -1.2676716

yet another poster confirming that observer was not at the auction as he claims given his completely incorrect recounting of events :laughing:

and silence so far on whats wrong with the “bubble media” reporting this time :angry:

the article seems quite balanced to me

To: Irish Times Property Editor
From: Spectator1 (known SF EA), a.k.a. rm-observer (plus other aliases)

Subject: Copy for 63 Dartmouth Square Auction

“Explosive auction in heart of redbrick D6 sees the Celtic Tiger roar back !”

“If you felt a tremor last week in the mid-afternoon, it was probably from the Sherry Fitzgerald auction rooms. 63 Dartmouth Square, a small innocuous tired little D6 terraced red-brick by the canal, blasted past even the most optimistic of expectations, to come within a hairs whisper of being snapped up by canny Irish buyers for a cool 2 million. Well-informed observers will compare this sale, to the sale of 61 Dartmouth Square, the palatial trophy home of Paddy Power CEO Paddy Kennedy, which sold for 1m with all the trimmings, at the bottom of the market in 2012. We’re back”, said a clearly drained Spectator1.

“We had to tell people who had not brought actual physical cash of at least 1.75m to the auction room to leave” said, Spectator1. “Had it not been for that, we would have easily made over the 2m, and could probably have sold the whole street as well. We also demanded proof of I.D. that you are Irish, and had been living in Ireland through the GFC. It was important to have an “Irish” auction, to reward those who lived through the GFC, and be part of this special moment”, added Spectator1

“It looks shocking to the casual observer, but these are the people who have cash post the crash. These are the smartest ones in the room, and they are piling hand over fist into Irish property. They didn’t like it back then, but they love it now. However, they are very disciplined bidders. We had about 20 bids at the 1.9m mark, but, this being new territory for prices, only one was yet willing to walk through the proverbial airlock, so to speak to clinch it. But they will be back”, smiled Spectator1 knowingly.

“Ultimately, this is a continuation of the dramatic uplift in higher-end prices that we have seen since at least last week. People have been talking about 5 Temple Gardens, but this is not the time for that. I have nothing to add. The new rental legislation forcing people without a home to wear a gold star on their clothing has clearly helped. The critical element is to get the Irish Central Bank to allow Irish people, who are shrewd with their money, to get 7x their income in mortgages again.”

“We could solve the Syrian housing crisis, if we had that”, ended Spectator1.

Call from Irish Times:

Irish Times: “Hi BillG, we can’t run Spectator1’s copy. We can’t do a 5 Temple Gardens again (or ever mention it).”

BillG: “Okay, but let me remind you who pays the bills here (hence my name).”

Irish Times: “We accept that, but if we carry down this road, our paper won’t be worth reading, which hurts us all.”

BillG: “What do you suggest?”

Irish Times: “We dump Spectator1’s copy (for future reference, we are not allowed to use the term “cool”, “canny” or “snaped up” again in relation to property articles). We need to mention that the first high-end auction of the season failed”

BillG: “They found a body in the attic just before the auction of 9 Eglinton.”

Irish Times: “Oh, okay, are you prepared to go on record with that.”

BillG: “Eh No. It was someone I know, too painful to talk about now. Just keep it in.”

Irish Times: “We are willing to state that the room was full, there were 6 bidders, and 2 took it over 1.7m to final bid.”

BillG: “Drop the last part, I was sure there were 6 at 1.8m.”

Irish Times: “We think the under-bidder was an ex-pat, but the actual winner was unclear ?”

BillG: “Forget the under bidder. Winner was an agent acting for an Irish buyer - quote me on that.”

Irish Times: “Were there other agents acting for buyers in the room ? How do you police this area ?”


Irish Times: “We can’t use the 61 Dartmouth Square as we believe it is not an “arms length” transaction ?”


Irish Times: “We can take the average sale of all Dartmouth Square houses since 2010, which comes to 1.3m.”

BillG: “Have you kept 61 in that?”

Irish Times: “Yes”

BillG: “Thanks, okay, so that makes it “under” 1.3m. Make sure you capture that word.”

Irish Times: “So 1.3m in average price, plus 500k in full refurb equals 1.8m. How come you used a 1.4m AMV”

BillG: “Eh, it was Spectator1, he took it down wrong, was meant to be AMV 1.75m.”

Irish Times: “Okay, our headline is that the auction “confirms” +1m pricing, it that okay?”


Irish Times: “Oh, and the seller was a DO’B associate, do you mind if we do a part on that, readers love anything DO’B?”

BillG: “Hi Spectator1, we got a problem here, set up a meeting with Keenan in the Independent.”


The thread that keeps on giving. :smiley:

its classic - O35 turn of phrase is brill

but in fairness to the IT - the article was balanced and it looks like the Pin has an effect on the “balance” of their copy


i think its now safe to say that your conspiracy theories know no end
every post you spout rubbish about the “bubble media” publishing pieces written by EAs
you set yourself up by saying that they would publish a bullish article and they did not at all, as is so often the case
now that you were wrong about the article being bullish you have to resort to further insanity by claiming that the IT refused to publish a planted article
its quite clear that you dont know anything about newspapers or what happens there
as i told you previously EAs do not write articles in papers unless their names are attached to it and its relating to an area of their expertise

you now claim that the following posters on this thread are from Sherry FitzGerald:

did i get them all?

the cracks in your posts are becoming more and more apparent and they are evident to other posters and readers
nobody has an issue with you taking an amateur interest in property
the issue as demonstrated in this thread is that your posts contain falsities presented as facts
you lied about attending the auction for the sake of appearing knowledgeable however doing so was absolutely moronic to say the least considering how many people were there and were able to contradict your version of the goings on
as previously mentioned you were on here posting about other properties after the auction but did not think to come post the result as in fact you were not there and then proceeded to make up a story of the events that made it seem like only 2 people really wanted it to suggest there wasnt much interest and then trying to weave in that the underbidder was an expat to suit your narrative about only expats having the money and being uneducated
the danger of this is that people looking for properties in the area will be lead to underestimate the demand for properties and this will hinder them in their search as they do not have correct information about the market, demand and competition for properties in this area
from reading your post they would think theres very little interest if only 2 bidders supposedly bid up the property and with 1 of those now gone having bought this property there’s maybe only one other
in fact theres another house for sale on the square at the moment… not that you would know… so i presume once thats sold to the underbidder of 63 then theres no buyers left for dartmouth square,?

so some advice for the future…
talk about what you know
do not fabricate stories about auctions you didnt even attend while pretending to have done so
try to give up on the insane conspiracy theories