WIW - Dromeen, Kilmore Avenue, Killiney


#1

daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=701779

Any thoughts on this? I would have thought it is a small site - what say the pinsters - 350k?


#2

well for a start you need to look at the An Bord Pleanala conditions which omit the artists studio and au pair accommodation and require you to keep and refurbish the existing garage. None of which is mentioned in the Savills ad. The original planing permission in 2006 was extended to 2018.

The existing permission is a pretty poor design. I suspect whoever buys this will start the process again. I can’t see it getting €750k, despite the great locaton and lovely views.

I would love to have a go, if money were no object.


#3

Again if money not object (and it was sub €1m) I’d like a crack at this:

myhome.ie/residential/brochu … in/2282754


#4

Wow. Those views really are uninterrupted. And not even neighbours to be wondering about.

Want.


#5

sigh… if only…


#6

I am struggling to see how I can get the cars into the Granny Annexe…you can look at a Lambo but you cannot drive a view :slight_smile:


#7

Great address and site, but good luck getting planning on Vico Road. If you buy that, you have to assume that you’ll be stuck with it as-is and that’s a lot of money for something very small with possibly no potential to extend.


#8

Sweet jesus, that’s almost pornographic.

There’s something deeply satisfying about having a hill behind you and water in front. Feng Shui or something.

(vainly searches pockets for spare million quid)


#9

The wife works in the council. :wink:


#10

Was 1.9m, 1.1m (same size site as on sale at present?)
collapso.net/HistoryMyHome/108626.html

Now 750k
daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=704074

1150k drop, down 60%


#11

Woohooo … down to a mere 2.2 mil’ per acre.


#12

Saw this site. Not only does it seem way overpriced at over 2m per acre this far out, but your views seem to be materially blocked by the jungle / forest your neighbour in front has?


#13

I know a guy who had a bid on this 18 months ago at €500k. Withdrew because it turns out the ‘sewage’ connection in the planning permission isn’t viable and the neighbour won’t allow access through his pipe. Septic tank would be difficult on that site.


#14

gone ‘sale unagreed’
back at 750k for 0.35 of an acre (+2m an acre)
I don’t think anything is selling for 2m an acre out here
Even 500k seems plenty for this in my view ?

myhome.ie/residential/brochu … in/2301012


#15

SITE AT DROMEEN, KILMORE AVENUE, OFF KILLINEY HILL ROAD, Co. DUBLIN.
0.136 ha / 0.33 acre

Missed this, after a few false starts, finally sold for 600k at end 2013 (per PPR):
Date of Sale: 18/12/2013
Price: €600,000.00

Implies 1.8m an acre valuation for a well located Killiney site but with restricted sea view (limited to upper floor and still mostly blocked by Thorncroft’s dense trees in front). No south view as blocked by neighboring houses in the row, and the hill behind blocks most western / evening light (classic Killiney / Dalkey set up in fairness). Check it out on Apple iMaps 3D.


businesspost.ie/site-near-killiney-beach-with-planning-permission-for-five-bed-house/

I know that at one stage late in 2012 / early 2013, the agent was considering, very seriously, a bid for under 350k (c. 1m an acre). At the same time NAMA was selling the nearby Buena Vista site on Killiney Hill Road for just over c 1m an acre, and Paddock Wood was just being put up for auction, also with an asking implying <1m an acre. Eirene (been on the market for years) had finally also sold for just over 1m an acre (with semi-derelict 3,000 sq ft. period structure thrown in).
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10101&p=832085&hilit=eirene#p832085
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=59203&p=752815&hilit=buena+vista#p752815
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=60830&start=15&hilit=paddock+wood

Dromeen had sold for 1.9m in March 2005 (c. 18 mths pre market peak) for a valuation of almost 6m an acre (listed as Dromeen House), probably driven by the sales of nearby c 1 acre sites of Buena Vista and Paddock Wood for over 4.5m in 2004:
irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/foxrock-house-on-0-5-acres-sells-for-3-2m-1.422059
irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/vista-from-art-deco-style-home-in-killiney-1.1144257
highbeam.com/doc/1P2-24743419.html

There are view opportunities south of Killiney Hill Road (the most valuable part, with the sea views), to build new modern houses. Killiney planners are really hardcore with period houses (i.e. no removal of period back wall for blowout kitchen etc.). Even with existing 1970s houses, they can require - under sustainability - that proportions of the structure are kept (although Board P is more accommodating, and hence almost every planing goes to AnBP). Dromeen came with the benefit that the existing structure was completely derelict and the site would therefore have much wider planning options (no requirement to keep existing structure).

The 2005 buyers won permission from An Board P for 620 sq m of new build (6,689 sq ft.) on a 0.33 acre site in August 2007 (D06A/1761). They never started construction but extended the planning in Oct 2012 (D06A/1761E). That is a big house for a 0.33 acre site. There aren’t many +6,000 sq ft. houses on that part of Killiney on such a modest (by Killiney standards), site. Even on very good roads in core D4, that would be quite a very well developed standalone site.

The 2013 buyers have gone for new planning for a 465 sq m (5,017 sq ft.) house (D15A/0379) with Stephen Newell Architects.

Dromeen might have made c 2.2 - 2.4m at absolute peak (c 6.5-7m an acre), so the 600k was c. 25% of that. Many receivers tried to use this 25%-rule for valuations of ‘good’ sites / houses in 2012 and 2013. In many cases however, especially when we saw cash rich (or loan rich) developers spontaneously paying 50-100% premiums in 2006, this rule was comprehensively broken. The fall-back was 40-50% of c 2004 valuations, which was more accurate and reliable but by no means perfect. That is why most upper-end Dublin houses, in spite of claims otherwise, are not at 2004 valuations (i.e. the upper end market is not up 100% from the bottom).

Dromeen became a key benchmark for agents in Killiney re sites / land. While it is not on Killiney Hill Road, Kilmore Avenue (or Saintbury Avenue) is a very desirable road off Killiney Hill Road (as per Marino Avenue). It was also a normal shaped regular site and none of the draw backs of a period house or material planning issues (it had the D06A/1761E planning). It was also on the market for a while so was tested (it went sale ‘un-agreed’ more than once). It went from being almost unsellable in late 2012 (at least for over 1m an acre), to being well bid by mid 2013 to almost 2m an acre. Amazing how quickly land prices rose in Dublin.

Note, Dromeen (Google Earth mistakenly labels it as “Kilbeag”, and also labels a neighbour’s site as “Drumeen”) is at the junction of Saintbury Avenue and Kilmore Avenue, just off the middle of Killiney Hill Road.

It is a beautiful place to walk on a summers evening. Like being on a country lane (although a pretty steep one in some places). Very private and secluded, particularly at the upper Saintbury Avenue part (where Dromeen lies).


#16

Caught sight of the CGI images for the new house going up at Dromeen - looks fab.

Stephen Newell is the architect (sna.ie), and the full drawings for D15A/0379 are on DLR planning website.
I think that Newell’s “tower with vertical slot windows” is becoming his trade feature.
This is a nice effect internally, where you get bigger open vertical spaces in parts of the house that would be dark (i.e stairs).
Works really well here being set into the large straight stone-clad wall here (very subtle “castle” feel, but not in any kitsch way).

James Horan did the CGI images for Dromeen’s planning (highly recommended with AnBP and great idea, albeit not cheap).

I think this house is pretty cool. Having a big 2nd floor terrace is key to getting a fuller sea view (the drawback of Dromeen’s site are the trees in front blocking it’s seaview at ground level and even part of 1st floor). In addition, given the drawback of many Killiney Dalkey full sea view houses (i.e. hill behind blocks the west evening light), they have gone for full privacy with a long stone-clad straight wall (and even brought the garage inside, to give a really long-wall effect and expand the 2nd floor terrace). Built up over three floors.

Good call to put kitchen / living on 1st (entrance) floor (I’ll bet there were endless discussions on this). I would loose the railings at the front for the two light-wells (too office like) and replace with natural thick (for health & safety) wooden grills set in the light well but out of sight at c. 0.5m below the surface (allow some green plants to hang off these grills down into the well, and consider mirror and natural pool at base for effect internally - done well is amazing on the interior, although done badly is like a cheap spa).

Wouldn’t do so much paving in front (better to use cheaper but high quality gravel as looks more natural and in keeping with the stone front - they will have a mix of clad stone, tower stone and gravel stone, which would be cool) and re-invest in a top quality mega wide, thick natural wooden (emphasise wood of garage) large double door (lots of glass around it, for key west light), which would really affirm the “status” of the house.

Top floor master bedroom / study / terrace will be amazing with full sea views (and high enough that it would capture the evening west light too). I’m sure they would have loved to have had a bigger terrace on the entrance 1st floor, but they have extended this floor to the max eastward allowance, without starting to overlook back into their neighbors (per planning document drafts).

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/11cb11_17d6e448db6449db9dd5533900494079.jpg_srz_976_651_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/11cb11_617b632808f44237af7680f33be42782.jpg_srz_976_651_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/11cb11_3d8397ecd9724ffea47326f9140180f9.jpg_srz_976_651_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz


#17

There was concern in the high-end parts of Killiney, that with key sites going so cheap in the GFC, cheaper / low grade (i.e. <<200 sq ft all-in) houses would be built on them. I actually think the opposite has happened. In fairness, if you could have afforded 600k for 0.33 acres of site in 2013 in Dublin, you were not a poor person at that time. If anything, the standard of current new builds I see is as good (and better) as the McMansions (big emphasis on scale / size), that were done in the boom (i.e. “Miami Bling” of Paddock Wood or “Cheap Scale” of Hendre vs. the new Eirene renovation).
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=60830
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=60901
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10101

The new buyers of Dromeen, will have spent c. 2.1m (all-in) on their 5,000 sq ft high-end contemporary house.
(600k for site + approx 1.5m build, or just under c. 300 per sq ft all-in, given glass + cladding etc.)

Compare with the recent sale of the smaller 3,000 sq ft Mount Prospect Killiney Hill Road.
(also brand new but, no view, tiny front garden, no back garden, in an estate, in poor part of Killiney Hill Road, no views) for 1.9m.
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=64533

Shows when the land price is not “over hyped”, it leaves scope for much better quality builds (vs. size for size sake) ?

I suspect the above completed new contemporary house will be worth +2.5m (comfortably) vs. Mount Prospect 1.9m and Middle Abbeylands 2.5m, if not higher depending on final quality / aesthetic of completed result (+2.75m). This makes Dromeen’s site worth well over 1m (i.e. +3m an acre), and is consistent with other pricing seen elsewhere in the most desirable parts of Killiney since about mid 2014 (see link below), and particularly for sites without protected period structures on them.
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?p=871047#p871047

Probably the best direct comparison, is late 2015 sale of Tenerife on the Glenalua Road in Killiney Village for 1.1m (or 3.5m an acre). Tenerife was on a similar sized 0.31 of an acre site - and like Dromeen, was bought as a site - but was on a much less prestigious road / weaker positioning, right up in Killiney Village, then Dromeen’s site (much more private and exclusive).
thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=66103