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 Post subject: Re: The National Debt
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Well if limited borrowing was spent on real infrastructure projects there may be few complaints. It's the perpetual borrowing for current expenditure throughout the cycle that has caused the bankruptcies of the past.

Re: the €15bn motorway network. I always thought Europe 'gave' us that. The value we have got from that few quid spent compared to the splurge post 2008 that brought us from 50bn to 200bn. Oops wrong thread. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: The National Debt
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:20 pm 
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Epicurus wrote:
W
Re: the €15bn motorway network. I always thought Europe 'gave' us that. The value we have got from that few quid spent compared to the splurge post 2008 that brought us from 50bn to 200bn. Oops wrong thread. :wink:

No. We built most of it from 2006 to 2010 and we only got _some_ EU money for around 1/4 of the overall motorway network...all skewed to the older cheaper sections near Dublin. 20% of it is PPP sections but we had to buy the land there first.

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 Post subject: Re: The National Debt
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:45 pm 
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Have public-private partnerships gone out of fashion?
https://www.rte.ie/eile/brainstorm/2018 ... f-fashion/

Quote:
the borrowing required to finance a PPP project is not counted as government debt and it’s counted off-balance sheet.


Dodgy business it would seem.

+ the indirect taxation via tolls.


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 Post subject: Re: The National Debt
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:55 pm 
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snaps wrote:
Have public-private partnerships gone out of fashion?
https://www.rte.ie/eile/brainstorm/2018 ... f-fashion/

I hope our national debt is adjusted to take into account the ppp's?


PPPs are a mixture of semi recourse and non recourse and revenue shares.

1. The toll in Kilcock makes more than contracted profit and the state gets a share of revenue same in Dundalk I think.
2. The toll in Limerick on the tunnel makes less and we cover losses annually.
3. The toll in Ballinasloe makes losses and we are not on the hook for them BUT the NRA gave ex gratia payments in the past and the traffic has bounced up in recent years so they may now be running a small profit.
4. I don't think we pony up for shortfalls in the other Munster PPPs.

Very hard to calculate what to capitalise onto the national debt out of that lot, really. Such a mixed bag of liabilities. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The National Debt
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:19 am 
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2pack any idea if the Waterford motorway is still a vastly over specced white elephant? My mate drove north on a Tuesday evening a while back and was expecting to meet tumbleweed it was so quiet... Thanks Martin Cullen


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 Post subject: Re: The National Debt
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:22 pm 
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slasher wrote:
2pack any idea if the Waterford motorway is still a vastly over specced white elephant?

Yes, it carries much less traffic than any other toll section in the country and that is a problem for some Spanish Bank, not the Irish Taxpayer.

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 Post subject: Re: The National Debt
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:45 pm 
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2Pack wrote:
slasher wrote:
2pack any idea if the Waterford motorway is still a vastly over specced white elephant?

Yes, it carries much less traffic than any other toll section in the country and that is a problem for some Spanish Bank, not the Irish Taxpayer.

Well, that bridge isn't on the motorway but is the N25 1km beyond the motorway end, forming part of the ring road, (so misses a good bit of Waterford City traffic) The motorway itself was surely State funded? My engineer mate was always adamant that a dual carriageway was more appropriate.


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 Post subject: Re: The National Debt
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:03 pm 
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slasher wrote:
My engineer mate was always adamant that a dual carriageway was more appropriate.


Not a national debt issue. You mate is saying a lesser standard road could have sufficed and would have saved the Spanish bank some wedge. I agree with the engineering analysis. There is a longer and pertinent analysis here, albeit one with the benefit of hindsight attached.

I do not want any more road PPPs if that is what you want to hear. :)

Nor do I think there should be many more motorway grade schemes, bar bits near Cork Limerick and Galway cities, Cork-Limerick and Mullingar-Longford and the Dublin Outer Orbital in 10 years time. Dual Carriageway standard will be enough elsewhere but most of what we need will be decent single carriageway.

I'd say another c.250km tops and we have 1000km, or so, of motorway today. This will cost the exchequer €2.5bn or so to finish and near half of it would be in County Cork alone.

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 Post subject: Re: The National Debt
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:05 pm 
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2Pack wrote:
slasher wrote:
My engineer mate was always adamant that a dual carriageway was more appropriate.


Not a national debt issue. You mate is saying a lesser standard road could have sufficed and would have saved the Spanish bank some wedge. I agree with the engineering analysis. There is a longer and pertinent analysis here, albeit one with the benefit of hindsight attached.
.


The Spanish built the bypass not the overspecced motorway
From your link

Quote:
The lemon of the CRG trio is the N25 Waterford Bypass motorway, which officially opened in October 2009. CRG is responsible for the Suir River Crossing cable stayed bridge, which is 465 metres long, 23km of dual carriageway, and almost 10km of single carriageway
.

Once you get on the motorway there's no toll all the way to Dublin


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 Post subject: Re: The National Debt
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:06 pm 
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We only came up with a dual carriageway standard in 2007 *LINK, the contractors were onsite building the M9 by then.

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