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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:21 am 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Magpie wrote:
The SEAI grants stipulate that the works be carried out to a certain standard, which adds a lot of cost. New installs are cheaper than retro fitting.

Or the price goes up because taxes are being paid.


I looked into this a few years ago when getting a new gas boiler.

None of the three installers I cold-called from SEAI's website really wanted to install a system to the SEAI standard.

From memory it would have added about €800 to the cost overall and we decided to go without.


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 Post subject: First coal-free day in Britain since Industrial Revolution
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:43 am 
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A bit of an exaggeration as people still use coal for home heating, but still a milestone.
Quote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39675418
Image
Britain went a full day without using coal to generate electricity for the first time since the Industrial Revolution, the National Grid says.

The energy provider said Friday's lack of coal usage was a "watershed" moment.

Britain's longest continuous energy period without coal until now was 19 hours - first achieved last May, and again on Thursday.

The government plans to phase out Britain's last plants by 2025 in order to cut carbon emissions.

Friday is thought to be the first time the nation has not used coal to generate electricity since the world's first centralised public coal-fired generator opened in 1882, at Holborn Viaduct in London.

Cordi O'Hara of the National Grid said: "To have the first working day without coal since the start of the industrial revolution is a watershed moment in how our energy system is changing.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:12 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
T. Kiefer on Robert Rapier blog wrote:
Decommissioning of world’s first offshore wind farm offers an opportunity to see how industry costs have changed over the past 25 years.

Lifetime Performance of World’s First Offshore Wind Farm

The first offshore windfarm in the world has just been decommissioned and is now being torn down. Its lifetime performance specs are illuminating in comparison with recent wind industry data, and alternative generation options.

Image

Conclusions:

1. While turbines are getting larger, able to operate at lower wind speeds, and improving their capacity factors, the total lifecycle cost per unit of energy provided from offshore wind has not perceptibly decreased from 1991 to 2015. Higher costs of O&M for larger turbines farther offshore seems to consume savings from higher capacity factors.

2. As it is uncontrollably variable and weather dependent, offshore wind generation remains uncompetitive with gas and coal which are half the cost (~ $70/MWh LCOE) while providing fully dispatchable and weather-independent power that is of much higher value to a power grid.

More...

Surely gas and particularly coal are cheap because their pollution/climate change cost is not counted?

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:23 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
Surely gas and particularly coal are cheap because their pollution/climate change cost is not counted?


Both are cheap anyway, most numbers you see never take stuff like that into account

Gas is cheap because there is plenty of it for now, I read a few years back that Nigeria wastes more Natural Gas every year than the US uses, madness in a country where few people have electricity supplied by the grid

Also conventional Natural Gas is not really a pollution worry

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 Post subject: Re: First coal-free day in Britain since Industrial Revoluti
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:11 pm 
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dolanbaker wrote:
A bit of an exaggeration as people still use coal for home heating, but still a milestone.
Quote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39675418
Britain went a full day without using coal to generate electricity for the first time since the Industrial Revolution, the National Grid says.

I saw that reported and I didn't believe it. I'd take a bet it means no coal-powered electricity was dispatched. I don't think they can spin down the turbines at the big generators just because the National Grid isn't buying. Indeed, I would guess they still got paid for being on standby.

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 Post subject: Re: First coal-free day in Britain since Industrial Revoluti
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:06 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
A bit of an exaggeration as people still use coal for home heating, but still a milestone.
Quote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39675418
Britain went a full day without using coal to generate electricity for the first time since the Industrial Revolution, the National Grid says.

I saw that reported and I didn't believe it. I'd take a bet it means no coal-powered electricity was dispatched. I don't think they can spin down the turbines at the big generators just because the National Grid isn't buying. Indeed, I would guess they still got paid for being on standby.


National Grid says no -- it was due to planned maintenance and low demand.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:28 pm 
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There're clearly moving away from coal, Drax which is their largest power plant now burns a significant amount of wood pellets, whether this is a good idea or not is another question

Anyone know how long we plan on burning coal in Moneypoint

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:23 pm 
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My (limited) understanding is that the grid is kind of built around Moneypoint.

It also provides a stable base load, ie it can't be ramped up or down quickly.

Personally I am pretty agnostic about it. Right now it emits about 0.01% of global CO2 emissions.


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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:30 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
Personally I am pretty agnostic about it. Right now it emits about 0.01% of global CO2 emissions.


I agree, but pretty much every country could say a similar thing about their own coal powered plants, closing it down or converting it to gas would be a quick way for us to massively cut our emissions, if thats what we want to do, I'm surprised the greens didn't try to do it when they had the chance, they pushed for us all to buy Diesel cars instead

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 Post subject: Re: First coal-free day in Britain since Industrial Revoluti
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:21 am 
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ps200306 wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
A bit of an exaggeration as people still use coal for home heating, but still a milestone.
Quote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39675418
Britain went a full day without using coal to generate electricity for the first time since the Industrial Revolution, the National Grid says.

I saw that reported and I didn't believe it. I'd take a bet it means no coal-powered electricity was dispatched. I don't think they can spin down the turbines at the big generators just because the National Grid isn't buying. Indeed, I would guess they still got paid for being on standby.


Some coal plants can be turned off and on relatively quickly. Generally a couple of hours, though there's some work on designs that can do it in minutes. This is of particular interest in Germany, which has both a lot of coal generation and a lot of wind.


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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:08 am 
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the dude wrote:

I agree, but pretty much every country could say a similar thing about their own coal powered plants, closing it down or converting it to gas would be a quick way for us to massively cut our emissions, if thats what we want to do, I'm surprised the greens didn't try to do it when they had the chance, they pushed for us all to buy Diesel cars instead


Algeria spent 14% of GDP on fuel subsidies alone in 2015.

One euro in seven spent in the economy was in the form of a fuel subsidy.

Proportionately, this was higher than the whole spend on social welfare in Ireland.

All over the world there are other egregious examples like this.

Believe it or not, on a global scale, coal-fired electricity in Ireland is not even low-hanging fruit.


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 Post subject: Re: First coal-free day in Britain since Industrial Revoluti
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:59 am 
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Worstpigeon wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
A bit of an exaggeration as people still use coal for home heating, but still a milestone.
Quote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39675418
Britain went a full day without using coal to generate electricity for the first time since the Industrial Revolution, the National Grid says.

I saw that reported and I didn't believe it. I'd take a bet it means no coal-powered electricity was dispatched. I don't think they can spin down the turbines at the big generators just because the National Grid isn't buying. Indeed, I would guess they still got paid for being on standby.


Some coal plants can be turned off and on relatively quickly. Generally a couple of hours, though there's some work on designs that can do it in minutes. This is of particular interest in Germany, which has both a lot of coal generation and a lot of wind.

Are they pulverised coal burners? ... I kind of vaguely know they can be more like a gas turbine than a big slow-starting furnace. That would be good news for dispatchable power, but I still wonder how the grid can be reliably powered without someone paying for standby generating capacity. Apparently the CEO of the UK National Grid disagrees with me, though I notice the subtle reference in the last paragraph to a trade-off between alternative energy and reliability.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:55 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
Surely gas and particularly coal are cheap because their pollution/climate change cost is not counted?

That's true. Any reasonable accounting for carbon emissions would make onshore wind competitive with gas and coal. But it still means the cost of energy must go up if we want lower carbon. Would be nice if wind and solar were cheaper in absolute money terms too. I'm hopeful that day is coming so that alternative energy becomes compelling to non-tree-huggers.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:13 am 
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Yes that quote by the head of the UK National Grid is bizarre.

The vast majority of of electricity customers will continue what they want now: 99.99% reliability, a monthly bill, a stable price.

A lot of what he says is propaganda to appeal to policymakers and regulators. This is inevitable in heavily regulated industries like this.


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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Everyone want so save the world...but looks like we are going to pay through the nose for it

What is the
proposed
Levy for period 2017 The proposed PSO Levy for the period 1stOctober 2017to 30th
September 2017 is €496.5million.This proposed
figure is approximately €104.1 million (27%)more than the PSO Levy for the previous
period.
A number of drivers are contributing to the increase in the 2017/18 PSO levy, principally increased
renewable generation and the 2015/16 R-factor. Other drivers, including
an increase in the benchmark price, are exerting downward pressure

http://www.cer.ie/docs/001138/CER17115% ... 20Note.pdf


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