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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:14 pm 
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owenm wrote:
It makes just as much sense to produce octane from renewable electricity and use that in an ICE, no grid upgrades or charging stations and less co2 from production and destruction of cars without batteries, but that's just blue sky thinking.
https://www.geek.com/news/german-compan ... 2-1609987/


You think that burning natural gas in an efficient turbine to charge an EV is a bad idea but you support wasteful schemes like the one above, you clearly don't know what you're talking about

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:08 pm 
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the dude wrote:
owenm wrote:
It makes just as much sense to produce octane from renewable electricity and use that in an ICE, no grid upgrades or charging stations and less co2 from production and destruction of cars without batteries, but that's just blue sky thinking.
https://www.geek.com/news/german-compan ... 2-1609987/


You think that burning natural gas in an efficient turbine to charge an EV is a bad idea but you support wasteful schemes like the one above, you clearly don't know what you're talking about


Lets leave cost and everything else out of it and focus on the one thing we need to change to have a habitable planet in 100 years, Climate Change.

Putting sequestered carbon back into our atmosphere is the single first principle reason we have climate change. True or False?
Burning natural gas in an efficient turbine to charge an EV puts sequestered carbon back into our atmosphere. True or False?
The scheme I linked to, if commercialized, would cycle atmospheric carbon through ICE's and not add to atmospheric carbon. True or false?

The wasteful scheme as you call it, is really a research project and might actually be the answer if 1/10th of the R&D gone into EV's was made available to it, no? You put these new refineries beside the existing ones and you have your liquid distribution network in place for free, a tiny fraction of the grid upgrades, no charging points. You do however need the generation capacity.


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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:53 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Thing Fish wrote:
The cost of fuel for 200 km journey in an electric car is €5 , whereas for petrol its €20. Does anyone think that the taxes on petrol/diesel wont be transferred to electricity?

This is practically/politically difficult since there's no way to differentiate between different uses of electricity.

It makes more sense to apply the taxes to generation where the fuel sources can be discriminated.

With all the technology available and the fact that most EVs appear to have gps systems and internet connectivity, it's a simple move to log journeys and "road price" them.
Plus simple to to make it mandatory to install such tracking devices in all future vehicles.

I presume you're kidding. First you have to standardise them. Then you have to make them tamper proof. Then you have to deal with the civil liberties people screaming blue murder about trackability. Doable, maybe. Simple it definitely isn't.

Points one and two are easy, look at lorry tachographs as an example(very difficult to tamper with and get away with it), as for civil liberties, think mobile phone, your own personal tracking system happily carried around by the vast majority of users.
Simple it is!

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:02 pm 
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dolanbaker wrote:
Points one and two are easy, look at lorry tachographs as an example(very difficult to tamper with and get away with it), as for civil liberties, think mobile phone, your own personal tracking system happily carried around by the vast majority of users.
Simple it is!

1. Although the tacho requirements relate to the vehicle type rather than the use, driving an HGV is a job. We put all sorts of restrictions on people doing jobs that don't apply when doing the same activity on their own time.
2. Smartphones are opt-in.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
Points one and two are easy, look at lorry tachographs as an example(very difficult to tamper with and get away with it), as for civil liberties, think mobile phone, your own personal tracking system happily carried around by the vast majority of users.
Simple it is!

1. Although the tacho requirements relate to the vehicle type rather than the use, driving an HGV is a job. We put all sorts of restrictions on people doing jobs that don't apply when doing the same activity on their own time.
2. Smartphones are opt-in.

It's no different from fitting a tag to pay the tolls at the M50 and other toll gates, as for smart phones being opt in, you'll find that most people opt in to use the services provided and accept the tracking.
It would also be easy to flood the country with ANPR systems to track journeys for revenue collection purposes.

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"Democracy is like sausage, you want it, but you don't want to know how it is made". [John Godfrey Saxe]
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
"To be precise, my mistake. Humans are underrated": Elon Musk


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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:26 pm 
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Institute of Physics wrote:
Small modular nuclear reactors are a crucial technology, says report

Small modular nuclear reactors (SMRs) offer a way for the UK to reduce carbon dioxide emissions from electricity generation, while allowing the country to meet the expected increase in demand for electricity from electric vehicles and other uses.

More...

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:00 am 
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owenm wrote:
Lets leave cost and everything else out of it and focus on the one thing we need to change to have a habitable planet in 100 years, Climate Change.

Putting sequestered carbon back into our atmosphere is the single first principle reason we have climate change. True or False?
Burning natural gas in an efficient turbine to charge an EV puts sequestered carbon back into our atmosphere. True or False?
The scheme I linked to, if commercialized, would cycle atmospheric carbon through ICE's and not add to atmospheric carbon. True or false?

The wasteful scheme as you call it, is really a research project and might actually be the answer if 1/10th of the R&D gone into EV's was made available to it, no? You put these new refineries beside the existing ones and you have your liquid distribution network in place for free, a tiny fraction of the grid upgrades, no charging points. You do however need the generation capacity.

No.

Say you have a way to create hydrocarbon-fuels from atmospheric carbon, then you could produce octane, or NG substitute. Why not then burn that fuel in an ultra-efficient CCGT, generate electricity, and use EVs for transport?

There are lots of good reasons to go to EV. It ultimately creates a far more satisfactory vehicle: easier maintenance, more reliable, cleaner, easier design challenge, etc., and it means you can change your fuel-of choice flexibly (mixing fossils, hydro, wind, solar, nuclear, whatever).

But the scheme you linked to doesn't even give a way to create hydrocarbons from atmospheric carbon. What it claims to offer is a way to create hydrocarbons from atmospheric carbon and energy, via steam etc.,. That energy has to come from another source. It may be useful to have a way to produce hydrocarbons for some use-cases where electrification just doesn't work, but not for mass usage in motor cars.


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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:07 am 
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owenm wrote:
Lets leave cost and everything else out of it and focus on the one thing we need to change to have a habitable planet in 100 years, Climate Change.

The planet will be fine in 100 years

owenm wrote:
Putting sequestered carbon back into our atmosphere is the single first principle reason we have climate change. True or False?
Burning natural gas in an efficient turbine to charge an EV puts sequestered carbon back into our atmosphere. True or False?

If you're worried about emissions the fastest way to cut them in Ireland is to close Moneypoint or convert it to natural gas, since we won't be building any type of nuclear power plant, a natural gas base load is not a bad compromise

owenm wrote:
The scheme I linked to, if commercialized, would cycle atmospheric carbon through ICE's and not add to atmospheric carbon. True or false?

The wasteful scheme as you call it, is really a research project and might actually be the answer if 1/10th of the R&D gone into EV's was made available to it, no? You put these new refineries beside the existing ones and you have your liquid distribution network in place for free, a tiny fraction of the grid upgrades, no charging points. You do however need the generation capacity.

Yes its just a research project, and you can throw as many billions at it as you want, you won't change the laws of physics, its very hard to beat a battery powered EV for efficiency and that scheme will never come close

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:25 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
Points one and two are easy, look at lorry tachographs as an example(very difficult to tamper with and get away with it), as for civil liberties, think mobile phone, your own personal tracking system happily carried around by the vast majority of users.
Simple it is!

1. Although the tacho requirements relate to the vehicle type rather than the use, driving an HGV is a job. We put all sorts of restrictions on people doing jobs that don't apply when doing the same activity on their own time.
2. Smartphones are opt-in.

A possible scenario:
Year 1: Motor Tax is increased by 15% but anyone opting for a tracking option that proves they cover less than 20,000 km per year gets charged at the old rate.
Years 2- 4: Base rate of Motor Tax is progressively increased but increase for tracked vehicles doesn't match that pace, whilst still tracking inflation.
Year 5: Current CO2 basis for calculating motor tax is abolished. All cars will be charged based on kms travelled. Anyone covering 20,000 km per annum will still be paying the old rate plus inflation. Travel fewer km and you pay less, more and you pay more. Tracking devices are still optional but if you don't have one you are assessed at an assumed distance travelled of 50,000 km per annum. Tracker uptake leaps from 46% to 91% by year's end.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:01 pm 
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JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
Points one and two are easy, look at lorry tachographs as an example(very difficult to tamper with and get away with it), as for civil liberties, think mobile phone, your own personal tracking system happily carried around by the vast majority of users.
Simple it is!

1. Although the tacho requirements relate to the vehicle type rather than the use, driving an HGV is a job. We put all sorts of restrictions on people doing jobs that don't apply when doing the same activity on their own time.
2. Smartphones are opt-in.

A possible scenario:
Year 1: Motor Tax is increased by 15% but anyone opting for a tracking option that proves they cover less than 20,000 km per year gets charged at the old rate.
Years 2- 4: Base rate of Motor Tax is progressively increased but increase for tracked vehicles doesn't match that pace, whilst still tracking inflation.
Year 5: Current CO2 basis for calculating motor tax is abolished. All cars will be charged based on kms travelled. Anyone covering 20,000 km per annum will still be paying the old rate plus inflation. Travel fewer km and you pay less, more and you pay more. Tracking devices are still optional but if you don't have one you are assessed at an assumed distance travelled of 50,000 km per annum. Tracker uptake leaps from 46% to 91% by year's end.


The equivalent today would be to abolish motor tax and add an equivalent amount onto petrol and diesel at the pumps, but it's not politically appealing because it hits people living in their one off houses, rural ireland, commuters and hauliers harder. It also makes about 30 motor tax offices and their staff redundant, as well as freeing up Gardai and court time. My 4 km daily commute is subsidising someone else's 40 km daily commute because of this.


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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Posts: 214
JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
Points one and two are easy, look at lorry tachographs as an example(very difficult to tamper with and get away with it), as for civil liberties, think mobile phone, your own personal tracking system happily carried around by the vast majority of users.
Simple it is!

1. Although the tacho requirements relate to the vehicle type rather than the use, driving an HGV is a job. We put all sorts of restrictions on people doing jobs that don't apply when doing the same activity on their own time.
2. Smartphones are opt-in.

A possible scenario:
Year 1: Motor Tax is increased by 15% but anyone opting for a tracking option that proves they cover less than 20,000 km per year gets charged at the old rate.
Years 2- 4: Base rate of Motor Tax is progressively increased but increase for tracked vehicles doesn't match that pace, whilst still tracking inflation.
Year 5: Current CO2 basis for calculating motor tax is abolished. All cars will be charged based on kms travelled. Anyone covering 20,000 km per annum will still be paying the old rate plus inflation. Travel fewer km and you pay less, more and you pay more. Tracking devices are still optional but if you don't have one you are assessed at an assumed distance travelled of 50,000 km per annum. Tracker uptake leaps from 46% to 91% by year's end.


great - a system that's both complex and expensive, and incentivises cheating.

just stick it on fuel.


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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Avoiding the core issue of motor tax here which is that most of the motor tax, i.e. liquid vehicle fuel taxes (including customs and excise duties) and motor insurances taxes, etc., are NOT actually in any big way used to fund the maintenance and building of the road networks.

Most of the money collected is siphoned off towards government waste in other areas such as the Health Service Disaster and to fund other government planning and housing disasters.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:44 pm 
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Someone asked earlier. We found out today that
You won't be able to buy a petrol or diesel car in Ireland after 2030


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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:59 pm 
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temene wrote:
Someone asked earlier. We found out today that
You won't be able to buy a petrol or diesel car in Ireland after 2030


that's when they start phasing out cars altogether. powering 2 million EVs would require 8 GW (not counting the reserve) of more juice, that's over 100% increase in electricity generation capacity.

I conclude that it wont be an EV for everyone in the audience. The good news is that there will a socket from which to power your noise cancelling headphones on the electric bus.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:55 pm 
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Does anyone have any figures for miles powered by petrol/diesel so we can talk about the daily (peak) requirement and how that might be spread?

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