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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:27 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Apr 4, 2010
Posts: 4717
I wonder what effect this will have on the current economy. I suspect that it might be deflationary, but then, that might be no bad thing, under present circumstances.

People on low incomes will have both a goad and an incentive to save into pension funds, since they'll be compelled to do so and will also have a greater incentive to do so (25% tax relief, instead of 20% and their employers will be forced to contribute).
This will give them less disposable income, which will make their daily lives more difficult, unless their reduced spending power drags prices down. (we can hope. :roll: )

People on middle incomes, but paying higher rate income tax, like me will find paying into pensions less of a free lunch. How they react will be a matter of attitude. Since my fund would grow more slowly, I'd squeeze my spending harder, so that I could save more to compensate for the lower effective return (also deflationary). Other people might react differently...

As for the rich, well, it's not really their problem. After all, they're rich. :wink: 8DD

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People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.


Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
Book I, Chapter X, Part II,


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Planning Tribunal Attendee

Joined: Jul 31, 2011
Posts: 1425
Location: 0-71
People don't pay, so they will be forced In order to keep the money flow into "costs"... Sounds like its a "corporation" lobby is placing a tax on workers.

I still think there will be nothing in the pot in 30-40 years.

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http://www.independent.ie/business/iris ... 96858.html
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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Neo Landlord

Joined: Mar 3, 2009
Posts: 217
sounds like an excuse to replace or reduce the contributory pension at some point in the future. It's not much but at least it is currently guaranteed like a DB pension (assuming the economy doesn't completely tank but it was barely touched during the crash).


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:06 am 
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Real Estate Developer

Joined: Mar 17, 2008
Posts: 993
shweeney wrote:
sounds like an excuse to replace or reduce the contributory pension at some point in the future. It's not much but at least it is currently guaranteed like a DB pension (assuming the economy doesn't completely tank but it was barely touched during the crash).


Given that PRSI (Employer and Employee) was collected to serve this purpose in the first case I think it makes more sense to see this as a straight ahead PRSI hike of 6 percentage points on both sides. At 10.85% our employer PRSI is one of the lowest in Europe (the European average is 20% - https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/servic ... nline.html) - another of our employer-related tax advantages.

We don't collect property taxes to the extent that other countries and we have no wealth tax whatsoever. We don't even stick to the corporate tax rates that we claim to collect and avoidance is incredibly easy and worthwhile for anyone earning over 200k per year.

That's why our tax burden is carried by such a small proportion of our population and we could fix it. I think the response to this from the general public is going to be two fingers when they figure out what it is - it certainly won't be as muted as the response on here.


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:22 am 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Oct 19, 2010
Posts: 2670
Location: Dublin SE
metalmike wrote:
and avoidance is incredibly easy and worthwhile for anyone earning over 200k per year.

This will be news to a lot of people earning over 200k per year. Given our very very progressive income tax regime, people earning over 200k per year pay a disproportionate share of the income tax take. Can you back up that statement? Don't confuse corporate tax with individual income tax.

The bottom 36.6% of earners pay no net tax at all. https://www.irishtimes.com/business/per ... -1.2841652

This Public Policy document from 2009 shows that those earning over 200K despite making up 10.13% of taxpayers they are responsible for paying over one-fifth of the total income tax take. 22.1%. http://www.publicpolicy.ie/wp-content/u ... xation.pdf

Given that these 200k+ pa taxpayers are probably already maximising every available tax relief including maximising pension contributions etc the fact that they still are responsible for 22% of the income tax take despite making up just 10% of taxpayers doesn't fit with the populist narrative that if you earn over 200k pa that "avoidance is incredibly easy and worthwhile for anyone earning over 200k"

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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Joined: Apr 9, 2014
Posts: 2119
No wonder property prices are so high - 10.13% of the workforce earn €200k + :)

I think the correct figure might be 1.013%


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:19 pm 
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Joined: Oct 19, 2010
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Location: Dublin SE
Luan wrote:
No wonder property prices are so high - 10.13% of the workforce earn €200k + :)

I think the correct figure might be 1.013%

My bad

1.1% of taxpayers earn over €200k, they earn 10.13% of the total income but they also pay 22.1% of the total income tax pa.

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejourna ... 4/%3famp=1

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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Does it matter the top 1% of earners pay 22% of the total income tax take?


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:30 am 
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Old Time Landlord

Joined: Jan 31, 2007
Posts: 368
Location: Middle Earth
Luan wrote:
Does it matter the top 1% of earners pay 22% of the total income tax take?


Taxation with out representation, and conversely representation without taxation.

Of course I'm not suggesting you don't get a vote unless you pay tax or your vote is weighted by your contributions, it's unworkable but is it just that 1% pay 22% and 30% pay nothing?


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:23 am 
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Joined: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 1855
owenm wrote:
Luan wrote:
Does it matter the top 1% of earners pay 22% of the total income tax take?


Taxation with out representation, and conversely representation without taxation.

Of course I'm not suggesting you don't get a vote unless you pay tax or your vote is weighted by your contributions, it's unworkable but is it just that 1% pay 22% and 30% pay nothing?


One could argue that the 30% work for the 1%. The 1% profits from their labour.


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:18 am 
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Joined: Mar 25, 2008
Posts: 858
Location: North Dublin
Braighni wrote:
owenm wrote:
Luan wrote:
Does it matter the top 1% of earners pay 22% of the total income tax take?


Taxation with out representation, and conversely representation without taxation.

Of course I'm not suggesting you don't get a vote unless you pay tax or your vote is weighted by your contributions, it's unworkable but is it just that 1% pay 22% and 30% pay nothing?


One could argue that the 30% work for the 1%. The 1% profits from their labour.


One could argue that the 30% profits from their labour as well. Unless you think all capitalism is theft.


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Auto-enrollment
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Joined: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 1855
newirishman wrote:
Braighni wrote:
owenm wrote:
Luan wrote:
Does it matter the top 1% of earners pay 22% of the total income tax take?


Taxation with out representation, and conversely representation without taxation.

Of course I'm not suggesting you don't get a vote unless you pay tax or your vote is weighted by your contributions, it's unworkable but is it just that 1% pay 22% and 30% pay nothing?


One could argue that the 30% work for the 1%. The 1% profits from their labour.


One could argue that the 30% profits from their labour as well. Unless you think all capitalism is theft.

:lol:


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