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 Post subject: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:53 pm 
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Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this? Not just the current crisis/depression/recession thats un-folding before us, but where were the voices when this balloon of excessiveness was being pumped up during the last 10 years. Particularily the myth that was the Celtic tiger. Was I reading/watching/listening to the wrong stations.

There were no artists in Ireland at the forefront of social change or protest , from my time in France i was always amazed at how vocal and anti-establishment artists were, very eloquent and informed in their debate regarding social issues, that same voice in Ireland is and was barely a whisper.

Where was the music? Instead of cutting lyrics, punk and rock and roll anarchaic action we got androgenous mimicry of Southern Cal surf sound. Nothing much to protest Blairism, Gulf W2, Bush, commercialism, coproratism . Who can forget The Beat singing 'Stand Down Margaret', at the height of Thatcherism, The Specials ‘Concrete Jungle’ assault on the urban sprawl, Neil Young ‘4 Dead in Ohio’ . Billy Bragg and Red Wedge, UB40, the Brixton music scence at the forefront of workers rights. I know lots of these people eventually sold out but that’s the nature of things, they were meant to be replaced by the next generation but it never musically materialized. A bit of Damien Dempsey and Ian Brown were all I heard to counter the vacous melodies.
Instead we got Bono and Bob sharing a limo at the G8 summit with Blair and Bush . We had Oasis in Downing Street garnering votes for the New Labour, the new Monarchy.
Not a note not a peep not a chord of dis-chord to be heard.

Where were the equivalents of the plays of the early 1900 ? Those that depicted the life of the poor and championed the causes of the citizens of the tenemants. The plays that lampooned the behaviour of the governing bodies at the time, but did it in a manner that was educational and spurred people to insurrection and change. No sign of a latter day Casey, Moore or Gogarty we got Ross OCarroll Kelly (funny but not the cutting edge of serious social comment) . It says a lot that Martin McDonagh was rejected numerous times by the Gate, how they wish they had him now.

Radio Free Europe has been canceled in its place we present a Dave Fanning special on James Blunt (I kid you not)

And out literary output was forgettable in the extreme, afraid of the libel laws and chasing the next blockbuster for the airport shelves, have we had a Vidal, Updike, or Vonnegut making the breakthrough , creating a classic to sit on our shelves and be admired for years to come?

In the printed press the newsrooms were too busy getting invited to the launchs and functions to cast a critical eye over the changes in Ireland during the global and Celtic boom. Flann O’Brien would not have had a voice these days, he would have been permanently stuck in the pub with no outlet.

Poetry.. has there been verse written in disgust at the conduct of our leaders
Joe o’Connors writing a bit nowadays but nothing to compare with the Beat poets , Ginsburg et al. Heaney a later day Kavanagh or Clarke or Yeats I don’t think so. In their defense the poetry grants are small and meagre and inflation put the kibosh on any stanza that would make a stand.

The art world crowned a new Emporor, A shark suspended in a tank (you do know the shark has to be replaced ) celebrating the impermanence of art but is that not what is one of arts cornerstones its permanence of truth and beauty. IMMA too afraid to critique as the budget director held the purse strings.

Aosdana … became as synonymous with backhanders and seats for the faithful as any senate or semi-state body appointment.

University output, well we all know what their greatest contribution ws it was the well-rounded and educated captains of industry that went on to create the greatest calamity this country has yet faced .
Get involved in radical(not) Uni politics before becoming mainstream and talking in the Dail bar of my mad days in the Philosoph society . Meanwhile the professor was too busy worrying about tenure to attend to the true education of the masses.

Marches and street theatre with huge puppets depicting mythological creatures, well it’s the masses that were attached to the puppet strings, they were the ones who were being manipulated.

RTE are busy these days showing old programes, its apparent the lack of vision and creativity has left them short on material to cover the current situation. They cant even go back 10 years as they were synonymous with the property porn and have no material from that era either. No they have to go back 15-20 years to get something of merit. The director General took his instruction straight from Central Planning in The Taoiseachs office . Believe me NO-ONE will trot out Langerland in 15 years.

And now its all over there are few tunes, lyrics, books, words to document what has passed .
As with all things there are exceptions... you know who you are.. I welcome people pointing out who did take an artistic stand ... the rest of you are in the big black book and your body of work or lack there off is there for all to (not) see/hear/watch.

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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:00 pm 
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Well, I heard this song from another topic on the pin:


Over christmas I think TG4 were showing Damien Dempsey


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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:06 pm 
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They were all trying out for the Eurovision.

Irish artists seems to do their best work when the country is in a dire states, not when everything is rosey and everyone has a full belly.

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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:09 pm 
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there was also that movie "tigers tail". didn't see it.
but i think we will have a truely unique archive of how detached and escapist a society can get thanks to Cecilia Ahern.

my favorite writer of these times has been Paul Howard with his Ross O'Carroll Kelly books, it's all there, every bit of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:10 pm 
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Haughey bought them off with the tax exemption

smart move by haughey

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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:12 pm 
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Hunt down a chap going by the name of Captain Moonlight. "Dirty Cunts" would be right down your street.


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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:12 pm 
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Bostonorberlin wrote:
Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this? Not just the current crisis/depression/recession thats un-folding before us, but where were the voices when this balloon of excessiveness was being pumped up during the last 10 years. Particularily the myth that was the Celtic tiger. Was I reading/watching/listening to the wrong stations.

There were no artists in Ireland at the forefront of social change or protest , from my time in France i was always amazed at how vocal and anti-establishment artists were, very eloquent and informed in their debate regarding social issues, that same voice in Ireland is and was barely a whisper.

Where was the music? Instead of cutting lyrics, punk and rock and roll anarchaic action we got androgenous mimicry of Southern Cal surf sound. Nothing much to protest Blairism, Gulf W2, Bush, commercialism, coproratism . Who can forget The Beat singing 'Stand Down Margaret', at the height of Thatcherism, The Specials ‘Concrete Jungle’ assault on the urban sprawl, Neil Young ‘4 Dead in Ohio’ . Billy Bragg and Red Wedge, UB40, the Brixton music scence at the forefront of workers rights. I know lots of these people eventually sold out but that’s the nature of things, they were meant to be replaced by the next generation but it never musically materialized. A bit of Damien Dempsey and Ian Brown were all I heard to counter the vacous melodies.
Instead we got Bono and Bob sharing a limo at the G8 summit with Blair and Bush . We had Oasis in Downing Street garnering votes for the New Labour, the new Monarchy.
Not a note not a peep not a chord of dis-chord to be heard.

Where were the equivalents of the plays of the early 1900 ? Those that depicted the life of the poor and championed the causes of the citizens of the tenemants. The plays that lampooned the behaviour of the governing bodies at the time, but did it in a manner that was educational and spurred people to insurrection and change. No sign of a latter day Casey, Moore or Gogarty we got Ross OCarroll Kelly (funny but not the cutting edge of serious social comment) . It says a lot that Martin McDonagh was rejected numerous times by the Gate, how they wish they had him now.

Radio Free Europe has been canceled in its place we present a Dave Fanning special on James Blunt (I kid you not)

And out literary output was forgettable in the extreme, afraid of the libel laws and chasing the next blockbuster for the airport shelves, have we had a Vidal, Updike, or Vonnegut making the breakthrough , creating a classic to sit on our shelves and be admired for years to come?

In the printed press the newsrooms were too busy getting invited to the launchs and functions to cast a critical eye over the changes in Ireland during the global and Celtic boom. Flann O’Brien would not have had a voice these days, he would have been permanently stuck in the pub with no outlet.

Poetry.. has there been verse written in disgust at the conduct of our leaders
Joe o’Connors writing a bit nowadays but nothing to compare with the Beat poets , Ginsburg et al. Heaney a later day Kavanagh or Clarke or Yeats I don’t think so. In their defense the poetry grants are small and meagre and inflation put the kibosh on any stanza that would make a stand.

The art world crowned a new Emporor, A shark suspended in a tank (you do know the shark has to be replaced ) celebrating the impermanence of art but is that not what is one of arts cornerstones its permanence of truth and beauty. IMMA too afraid to critique as the budget director held the purse strings.

Aosdana … became as synonymous with backhanders and seats for the faithful as any senate or semi-state body appointment.

University output, well we all know what their greatest contribution ws it was the well-rounded and educated captains of industry that went on to create the greatest calamity this country has yet faced .
Get involved in radical(not) Uni politics before becoming mainstream and talking in the Dail bar of my mad days in the Philosoph society . Meanwhile the professor was too busy worrying about tenure to attend to the true education of the masses.

Marches and street theatre with huge puppets depicting mythological creatures, well it’s the masses that were attached to the puppet strings, they were the ones who were being manipulated.

RTE are busy these days showing old programes, its apparent the lack of vision and creativity has left them short on material to cover the current situation. They cant even go back 10 years as they were synonymous with the property porn and have no material from that era either. No they have to go back 15-20 years to get something of merit. The director General took his instruction straight from Central Planning in The Taoiseachs office . Believe me NO-ONE will trot out Langerland in 15 years.

And now its all over there are few tunes, lyrics, books, words to document what has passed .
As with all things there are exceptions... you know who you are.. I welcome people pointing out who did take an artistic stand ... the rest of you are in the big black book and your body of work or lack there off is there for all to (not) see/hear/watch.


This is the forefront the rest of dem are all down back of the bus messin SIR! They are putting me off my egg sandwiches SIR!

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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:14 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:03 pm 
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]'Bono's friendship with war criminals makes me cringe'

Quote:
U2 drummer Larry Mullen has admitted he "cringes" when he sees Bono associating with "war criminals" George W Bush and Tony Blair.

The normally reserved musician has launched a stinging attack on his frontman for his involvement with the two world leaders in an interview with music magazine Q.


if you need to subscribe i'll paste the entire article.


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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:23 pm 
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Those in power are not stupid.

The Vietnam war was was supposed to run on and on and on and on and it only ended when people took to the streets. I stress, it did not end when public opinion turned against the war, that didn't matter, it did not end because of what was happening on the ground, the US were neither winning nor losing they could easily have carried on or as happened stopped without any consequence either way (except more or less people would have to die).

The musicians of the era were pivotal in organizing and being focal points for the mass demonstrations.

Now assuming you are now in power and you wanted to avoid a repeat of this would you

a) ban music (tried and failed)
b) ban protests (tried remains to be seen if it will fail)
c) lick up to the potential pivots and pretend to make them feel special and tell them they have the ear of the powerful and that you care and want to make a change except etc. etc.

Answers on a postcard to
Mr. B Vox,
Netherlands

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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:22 pm 
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Bostonorberlin wrote:
There were no artists in Ireland at the forefront of social change or protest , from my time in France i was always amazed at how vocal and anti-establishment artists were, very eloquent and informed in their debate regarding social issues, that same voice in Ireland is and was barely a whisper.


Maybe its because Irish artists unlike French artists dont get huge government subsidies and government handouts so therefor cannot indulge in the political posturing that its so common among the French 'creative classes'. Its easy to pontificate about society and politics when one is little more than a functionaire.


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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:19 pm 
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jmc wrote:
Bostonorberlin wrote:
There were no artists in Ireland at the forefront of social change or protest , from my time in France i was always amazed at how vocal and anti-establishment artists were, very eloquent and informed in their debate regarding social issues, that same voice in Ireland is and was barely a whisper.

Maybe its because Irish artists unlike French artists dont get huge government subsidies and government handouts so therefor cannot indulge in the political posturing that its so common among the French 'creative classes'. Its easy to pontificate about society and politics when one is little more than a functionaire.

I dont want this to be a French versus irish thread thing but
Can you provide me with some evidence of these so called huge handouts that French artists get , Im not aware of them but doesnt mean they dont exist. And if you mean the fact my kids can get free music conservatory and dance lessons in Paris I dont call that a handout, its more like what govt should be providing.
I thought Ireland was the land of milk and honey for Artists regarding tax exemption status (thanks to Charlie hee-haw as someone else pointed out) The french do have system of tax breaks for artists but its pro-rata, the more you earn the less tax breaks it means strugling artists get a leg up but once your self-sustaining you dont get anymore breaks.Many French artists will take out citezenship of other countries (thru parents/birthright/residency) all to escape their draconian tax system
And your arguement shoots itself in the foot , if they are indeed in receipt of such handouts and mere functionaires of the French govt why is it they are so vociferous in their protests against the policies of said govt that is providing the handouts.. that makes no sense at all . In fact if what you say is true it makes it all the more admirable, not only are they in receipt of handouts but they are willing to bite the very hand that feeds them by constantly being at the forefront of media and street , debate and protest on social issues and the direction of their society .

Lets stay off a French versus Irish system debate. In some ways I think all the creativityt, music, tv personalities etc reflect perfectly the last ten years. The bust is only relativly recent and everything artisticaly from the Celtic Tiger, looks jaded.

Thanks to those who pointed out the few artists here who do have some credibility , must have watched that Damian Dempsey video 20 times today , pure genius. I do acknowledge the existence or artists of merit in ireland (they either want to remain incognito or are excluded ) I just dont see very much artistic quality in the mainstream legacy of the Celtic tiger years.

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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:07 pm 
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Transcript of Ryan Turbidy interview with George Lee and Anne Gildea
It's a twenty minute interview starts 7:00 minutes into broadcast

Just in relation to the subject where are the artists, they've been priced out of the local market.
(The 5.2 billion is the budget surplus)

Quote:
Tuesday 17th October 2006
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thetubridyshow ... tober.smil [realplayer required]

[Ryan Tubridy]
What would you do with 5.2 billion Euro, would you build every primary school on the government waiting list, perhaps, come close to abolishing hospital queues even or end homelessness. According to a recent survey 5.2 billion Euro is the amount Irish people are borrowing to trade up. 5.2 billion Euro to swap that one bed apartment for a terraced two up two down or the semi-d in the 'burbs for a period farmhouse in the countryside. So today we're asking, when and why Ireland became obsessed with bigger and better!, so to talk about it George Lee, RTE's economics editor joining us this morning and Anne Gildea, comedienne and first time author. Congratulations

[Anne Gildea] Thank you, and economics expert, this morning..

[RT]..For the purpose of the programme this morning, you're both very welcome. George, I'll start with you, Is this a new thing? Are we really trading up?, Does it really come down to a new excitement with the money?

[George Lee]
Well, I guess it is new when you see people's frenzy with regard to property. Its new in an historical context, because you have to remember that this is,, what we always tell the American's "an ancient and historic country going back millions of years, Brian Boru, and long before him and so on.." and despite that we have 1.8 million houses in the country and one third of them have been built in ten years. So yes, that's new I all that history so we are fascinated and in a frenzy at the moment with regard to housing. The other thing which is new is obviously there is a lot of people here with jobs and a lot of people coming, and when you have all those people with jobs and coming, a lot of them want to live, they feel they have a little bit of money,, another thing which is new is there has been a complete transformation in the financial services area where there's been deregulation of all descriptions and, am, much more competition, and instead of going cap in hand to a bank for money they are coming out to you with letters saying "here, will you have some money please?", and so you put all those together and you give people the juice to go with the frenzy and they do, and so its new!

[RT] So give us some indication George, of what people are trading?, how are people trading up?, what do they want more of, and better of?

[GL] They want more of everything, like everybody want more of everything, and, no matter where you look you see all of these en-suites, they are now the norm. And if you have an old house with no en-suite you feel that you are missing out, so you go to a builder for an extension price, and he gives you some wogeous, WOWGEOUS, amounts of money quoted, which is linked to the fact that he knows you can't move , unless you pay the government a load of stamp duty, so he's going to take that if you don't move, and at the end of the day, then people say well we want, we got smaller gardens, but bigger bathrooms. You know they've got tiny bedrooms and these kitchens, which they are nearly fold away and so on..{laughs}

[RT] Well , its always dark outside for these families, so the kids won't be able to play in the garden weither way, so you might as well have a big bathroom for them to play in.

[GL] Well,,no they are lucky if they have a garden, there are so many apartments, being built in places that you would never expect apartments to be built. I mean it is now the norm to go down the country, and, I,I don't say that as far as you should not have an apartment down the country or anything like that, but it is the norm to go down into small towns, where historically people have one acre gardens and see them building massive amounts of very tiny squeezed in housing, this is in apartments, and I think that that's all new. So our attitudes are very new. People will say "but, sure everybody has to have an apartment these days. When you ever, , lucky enough once in relation to my work in RTE, I got the benefit of a helicopter trip over to the Shannon to see flooding, and I couldn't get over how much green land there is in this country, how much space there is in this country, and we have all of the people squashed into these things with no room. NOw I know all of the town planners and the architects, say "but listen we can't spread forever", but I just find it remarkable that some of these apartments are outside of the main urban areas.

[RT] When you think of the great era's in Irish History, in the last century or so, witness the Celtic revival and the Celtic twilight that might have been there or the foundation of the state, back in the twenties, and then more recently we have this wonderful wealth that we talk about. Is it the era of the builder?

[GL]{pauses} It's certainly..well ,I don't know, am, yes it is the era of the builder, in one sense you heard all the talk in political circles about the tent down in the Galway races and places like that, am, the money that is being made is incredible, absolutely incredible.

[RT] Why do people always keep banging on about the tent in the Galway races, what's so significant about it?

[GL] Because..I'll tell you what's so significant about it, is that our property market has been driven much further than any other property market in the entire world in the last ten years, by tax breaks which are the most generous in the entire world in the last ten years, where we had interest rates which are the lowest possible, which would dictate why would you need a tax break?..2% were down as far as an then there are government decisions, remember that before the last election there was in place there what we call Bacon economic reports, where the government though what was going on in the property market was so scandalous, that people would not be able to afford to live in the country, there would be massive social consequences in the future. What will we do, we'll call in economic consultants to see what can we do to make property more affordable for ordinary people? We bought in one Bacon report, which said listen ordinary people, first time buyers have been squeezed out by investors, so something about it, and they did something about it. A second one and a third one. Come the election, they said "ah no, we won't do that because the builders are very powerful, what we are going to do is, we are going to remove all of those restrictions and let the thing roll, and they gave massive tax breaks, now they removed all the restrictions that were there and interest rates happened to come down after September 11 to 2% and stay very low, and they are government decisions which pushed this, and so, that's why that tent is so important. When you see people say, "well we have no choice, we have to borrow, we have to go out and buy and take the 40 year mortgage, those poor people don't understand, how it happened, how is it that our property market went up by so much and even the UK which is near us went up by an awful lot, but nowhere near, near as much as ours. How come the 40 year mortgage is here?

[RT] ..and why did it balloon in such a way..

[GL] It didn't just happen as a fact of nature, it was driven as a consequence of Government decisions.

[RT] OK. Anne Gildea, you know you are writing books now, do you want to give us an age group that you might be flling into so that we can put people in the..

[AG] I can give you an age if you'd like?

[RT] If you want..yeah, we'd be delighted

[AG] I'm Forty

[RT] You're Forty..OK, and you know, some would say that its your generation, our generation that's most guilty of trading up, Do you find this among your friends and colleagues.

[AG] I was saying this to your researcher yesterday, I mean the people I know are involved in the arts and stuff like that so they have different life goals. So I see them..

[RT] and no money..

[AG] Well yeah..limited amounts of money, and I see them really struggling, and I see ostentatiousness of everything that's gone on in Ireland, that I find kind of offensive, It kind of jars with me. Its a shame that it had to go this way. Its a shame that there couldn't have been a lefty element, some way that the government..you were saying it is all based on government policy that the country could have produced affordable housing for people that they could have kept a lid on things, instead this has just gone absolutely crazy and people are just really pushing, I was saying to your researcher that I think too many people borrow so much money to buy their property they get into this idea they that they will borrow to buy their handbag, borrow to buy their shoes, borrow for their car and everything else. So we are in a total borrowing mentality now, which certainly from my generation or my parents would have been like..you don't buy stuff unless you have the money. you know?

[RT] What are people trading up for? What do they want now, that isn't good enough for them yesterday?

[AG] Well, I can't believe the cars I see around, I see all these SUV's..I have a part time job down at Dublin port. I know I'm not supposed to say that, it does not sound very glamorous..

[RT] that's all right.

[AG] but, when I'm heading down there, I just see all the SUV's coming off the ships and they have these huge holding car parks and they're absolutely packed full of these high spec four wheel drives and you just see all these. What are they for? Why dfo people need this stuff, you know..

[RT] 'cos they feel like great fun when you are driving them. Is that the answer?

[GL] No. I don't believe..

[AG] You drive one ?? What do you drive George? hahaha

[GL] I do not drive anything remotely like it..

[RT] What size is your SUV George?

[GL] I don't have an SUV.

[RT] What colour is your SUV?

[GL] I don't...it doesn't have a colour

[RT] Is it leather interior?

[GL] No

[RT] or beige , c'mon now George, the secret life of George Lee..

[AG] What do you drive?

[RT] He drives an S U Lee

[GL] You've got an SUV Ryan, or three of them, my donkey is eating hay..but the thing about it which I find, I will be concerned about is young people are not free. You know, in one sense people used to say "God, if I had a job in Ireland, then you'd have a great lifestyle, then you'd be free to do this that and the other". Like if you're into the arts for example as we just heard, you find that this huge pressure where are you going to live, and, am, what are you going to do? and the consequence of you having those thoughts, which are normal thoughts are that you are going to have to take on a big commitment, a mortgage and now its a commitment of 40 years. In any walk of life to think that you are going to be in solid employment for 40 years is a brave decision, a big brave assumption and particularly in the arts because, it can be so precarious, you are very lucky if you are in a job..

[RT] You can barely get your car insured..

[GL] yeah, and so the pressure of that is to steer people away from those kind of creative things, human things,

[AG] It has totally changed, I remember when I used to live in London, and when I moved back in the early 90's, I absolutely loved it here, 'cause there was space there was people to do stuff. That has absolutely changed.

[RT] And where are the people that would have once, pursued a career in the arts, where are they being forced into in order to be able to afford a house?

[AG] Well, I think a lot of them are not going into the arts or they are approaching it very commercially.

[RT] OK so are they going into...

[GL] They are plasterers an plumbers, aren't they?. See that's were most of the jobs have been..

[RT] So all these artistic people missed their calling in the Abbey and they're ..

[GL] ...they're singing and dancing while they're doing the plastering.

[RT] Tap dancing..

[GL] and the female ones are in the public service, that's were they are, because if you look over the last ...

[RT] What do you mean by the female ones?

[GL] I'll tell you, exactly what I mean.

[RT] yeah, I'm curious.

[GL] If you take a five year period ending in 2005, you'll find that 62% of all new jobs for women in this country were in the public sector. If you take the five year period, the same five year period, you'll find that 62% off all the new jobs for men were in building, directly in building.
I'm Serious, and if you throw in then the financial services which are linked to the two because so much lending is going on, you'll find that 89% of all new jobs in that five year period were either, men or women in the public sector, building or financial services. What happened to the rest of the people that's were they're all working, and so its a very strange thing going on. There are plenty of jobs, but they are all in a particular category and so all of our eggs are in one basket.
And, in terms of an unbalanced economy that's one thing, but I can tell you I believe its an unbalanced society, because we all need some kind of levity and some kind of artistic stuff. You are going for 40 years with this huge yolk around your shoulder.

[RT] yeah

[GL] The two bedroomed apartment which you paid 10 times the average industrial wage for in some where that you got to travel to work for about two hours and so its a frenzy that's going on, and there no kind of, nobody is standing back and saying hold on that there will be consequences to this down the line.

[RT] but, you look at the TV now and the amount of lifestyle programmes, you got a better kitchen, your garden has to be better, bathroom, you got to cook nicer than Nigella Lawson, all these kind of things. Which is very phoney-boloney sort, whereas once we would have sat down and watched Brideshead revisited maybe or Inspector Morse or some other quality program, now its all about hammering into the.. you gotta have a bigger garden .

[AG] But do you think there is a change coming George, do you think we can continue like this?

[GL] Well, Nobody wants to think that its all going to end. And I'm not going to say it.

[RT] You're not a purveyor of doom, George? now come on.

[AG] I kind of wish that it would though..

[RT] Ah, you don't want it to end..

[AG] I don't like this materialistic thing, I really don't!

[RT] This is the question we must really ask ourselves, Do you want to go back to 1985, do ya? Do you want to see our friends and family hopping on buses ands scooting over to work in a building site in Brighton or in a bar in Boston? When they could be going to third level..

[GL] Ryan, what makes you think that wouldn't happen? If you got so many eggs in one basket, which is all in building, remember the building taxes are paying for the jobs in the public sector and you see interest rates going up, you see the tax breaks which have driven the whole thing coming to an end. Now people talk about all the economic risks and they've been talking about them for the last twenty years with the same risks and they still haven't happened. When will happen to the dollar, what will happen if there's as big earthquake or if there is an outbreak of SARS or something like that, and the exposure of the economy, so we talk about those risks all the time. Something might happen, hopefully it never will, but, in the meantime, what is very, very important is that we rebalance the economy, re-balance the nature of the jobs, re-balance the nature of society, so that if anything like that ever happens, it isn't such a big shock.

[RT] OK.

[AG] Rebalance our ethos, every thing's so economic driven now, its like we live in an economy, no, we live in a country. you know.

[RT] OK., its a societal sort of thing rather than just an economical thing. Lets have a listen to, this is quite an interesting piece of tape now. Now this is people talking about what kind of thing, Francis Shanahan, she went out on the streets of Galway to ask people about the type of houses they want to live in, and the additions they are making to their existing home, and, I think in twenty years time, they'll play this little bit of tape and they'll say "this is a little snapshot of a very interesting part of the current era.

[man in street 1] Well, about three years ago we decided to extend the bungalow that we had, those that know an A-line roof means that there's a huge amount of space up in the attic. We managed to get our large master bedroom in there with a large en-suite, and , my thing was if we were going upstairs I had a deal done with my wife that I could put in a sauna which I did. So I have a full sized sauna off the bathroom now and a lot of people think thats very fancy, very posh, but it actually cost very little money to put in in the first place. In actual fact putting the sauna in the house cost me something like the princely sum of 2 and half thousand euro's for the materials.

[Francis Shanahan] You built a house recently, how many bathrooms did you go for?

[man in street 2] We're just finishing off a house at the moment and we decided to put five bathrooms into the house, into a house that's about 3 and a half thousand square foot, and the reason we decided to go for five bathrooms, including one downstairs, which is a disabled bedroom and toilet and shower area is, you know, we all have elderly parents and you never know when somebody might have to come and stay in the house. I'm bought up in a fairly large house with five children and with five bedrooms, but there's only two bathrooms, one upstairs, one downstairs, and every morning when we were going to school there was this mad queue to get into the loo. I said we can't have that we're going to have to have five bathrooms. A bathroom in every bedroom.

[FS] You're house hunting?

[woman in street] Ah yes, I've been here in Galway for the last two years and finding it very, very difficult to find what I'm looking for. I'm probably looking for the dream like everybody else.

[FS] And for you the dream is?

[woman in street] For me the dream is the two front paddocks, the drive in and a house that's easy manage with sort of maybe three bedrooms with bathrooms en-suite, two good reception rooms and a big kitchen where you could have friends in for dinner and the old aga there and comfort.

[FS] All you need after that is a black labrador...

[woman in street] Ah, An Irish Wolfhound or and old mutt that you might buy at Balliasloe fair, possibly. as opposed to a black lab.

[RT] OK. George Lee take your head out of your hands now and tell me what you thought of that?

[GL] I just think what a sick society, to be honest.

[RT] why?

[GL] Because, I just think that that that kind of..I don't blame those people, right, at all, right. But the mere fact that these are now our aspirations. If I were a young person, who didn't have an ability to trade up I'd be sick. Absolutely sick, Because how are they ever going to get a break. Do you know that I can go out in the morning and get a 100% mortgage on a property that I might rent out. Ah, and immediately take back the VAT from the government which would pay for my 10% stamp duty plus fitting out the house plus some legal fees, and that's a relatively thing for you, I or anybody who's in a position of some kind of financial strength, whose already got one foot on the ladder, to do, we can go out and we can get section 23 investments and write off,,,if we spend €300,000 we might have a €250,000 tax break that we can use for years to reduce our tax bill, so that then we can go and get our five bathrooms and our paddocks out the front and our sauna's in or bedroom, right. What about the rest of the people?, It's an outrage. These young people who are out there listening to that, their expectations been raised, with nobody doing anything for them, nobody. The government document you can sign up for an affordable housing scheme and we might put your name in a lottery and you might be lucky to be brought out. Where's the nature of our society, that people have to have a lottery to see whether they are going to join the rest of us in our paddock and our saunas and our five bathrooms. I just think that as a society that there's a problem, a significant problem in terms of our young people. How is it, that you know, years ago, if somebody had a bit of bottle and were different to their previous generation they were admired? and you know you look at the Beatles or you look at people like Branson (Richard) or you look at people who have vision. Who just say I'm going to do,, I am me and I'm going to do what I'm going to dom right. And sometimes your parents are different to you, but you know you're going to do whatever it is,, but now, the way it is, unless you lick up to your bleady parents, you can't get any money to get on the property ladder. To get what we're told are five bathrooms, paddocks and sauna's, c'mon, as a society this is sick.
Now in terms of how it happened is a different issue, and in terms of dealing with it, and nobody wants to pull the plug there is a conspiracy about this, because everybody is tied into it. The government doesn't want it to end, particularly before the election, because that would be a bad feeling, the builders certainly don't want it to end, the lawyers - their making money out of it, the architects are making money out of it, everybody related to the building industry is making money out of it but nobody is talking about the young people.

[RT] But, they're all happy, right. so the builders are happy, the architects are happy, the government seems to be happy according to to what you are saying. So there are a lot of people who are very happy with the way things are going, and the way the building boom creates jobs.

[GL] yes, which is why I said if I were a young person; I have no difficulties, I'm on the right end of this curve, right.

[RT] yeah.

[GL] but, I'm at the wrong end of it too, because I have kids. I have two kids....

[RT] Who're looking through the window , going what's up for us next?

[GL] I would much prefer that they were able to tell me where to go and go and do their own thing in the world, rather than come along and have the expectation that Daddy has to provide something for them.

[AG] It's not just young people either, I think a lot of older people, ordinary people are under pressure too, their under pressure from the mortgages that they have, and if they haven't got on the property ladder already they are massively under pressure, and that seems to be the values of this society. You have to buy into the values of a certain section.

[RT] Is it greatly different to our parents generation who now look at you and say do you need to get a taxi for that three mile journey, realisticly. I mean there is such a contrast, such a black and white contract between generations

[AG] Well, you might see that as the positive aspect of it all, but, I, I mean well put George, I absolutely agree with everything you say and its just not being said enough, and we really need to have a debate before the next election about the values we want in our society. I think we need a shift.

[RT] I think its something that may have started here and something we might look at again in the next couple of weeks.

[AG] I thought you said and I just thought it was going to be a light hearted discussion.

[GL] One final thing Ryan, at the moment, is that the banks are lending a lot of money, the reason why the banks are able to lend it is because their importing it from abroad, the amount of lending by banks, which is imported from abroad and recycled, is now up to 41% of our GDP, up from 10% in 2003. There is a massive amount of money being pushed at people and its easy to get it, if you are you or me who are in a comfortable position with comfortable jobs, young people are being given the same kind of money but they are taking it over 40 years. Now 40 years is not freedom. You know if I were a young person, I would be terrified of the society which said to me "you can live here, if you put this yolk around this neck for 40 years, and by the way aren't you very lucky" and everybody is happy. When you know and I know that in the past, twenty years was the norm and you paid far, far less. I just think that the choices we are making for people and for society are terrifying, if I were young. I wouldn't live here if I were young. I'd love to live here, but I would resent that so much, and I'd resent the people who are the generation ahead of me, who let it happen, did nothing and all they were worried about was whether they could borrow enough so that they could get properties for their kids who are now ten, but someday in the future might be 25 and you can pass it over to them, because that's what's going on.

[RT] OK.

[AG] And its sick that we don't see that there's any alternative and there is. But it will have to come from the government, there will have to be a different type of philosophy, like you have in Europe where renting is an option where you have got controls over the price of property.

[RT] OK. to the two of you thank you very much indeed, I'm sorry..

[AG] Ryan, you forgot to mention my book.

[RT] I was just going to do that, but please do now that your here.

[AG] can I say the name on air?

[RT] It's a bit rude but go on anyway.

[AG] Its called 'deadlines and dickheads', its published by O'Brien press, and its in the shops now and the launch is tomorrow

[RT] Congratulations, Anne Gildea, another sign of our times...

[AG] Hopefully I can get the sauna if it goes well.

[RT] Maybe George will show you round the paddocks when he's finished his.

[AG] Well, he was telling me about his paddock earlier, for his donkeys..

[GL] I haven't got a paddock.

[RT] Or an SUV or a donkey, George Lee, Anne Gildea, thank you both very much indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:34 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Jun 7, 2008
Posts: 2622
provost wrote:
Well, I heard this song from another topic on the pin:


Over christmas I think TG4 were showing Damien Dempsey


I think BoB was talking about talented musicians etc. That song is nothing but look at me, I'm from the north side, therefore I'm a working class hero and everyone else is a greedy conformist. More importantly, I'm sure he only wrote that song because it would appeal to a mass audience and so he could make money from it.


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 Post subject: Re: Where have been the artists voices in ALL of this?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:37 pm 
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Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31763
Location: Tullamore
Quote:
[GL] Ryan, what makes you think that wouldn't happen? If you got so many eggs in one basket, which is all in building, remember the building taxes are paying for the jobs in the public sector and you see interest rates going up, you see the tax breaks which have driven the whole thing coming to an end. Now people talk about all the economic risks and they've been talking about them for the last twenty years with the same risks and they still haven't happened. When will happen to the dollar, what will happen if there's as big earthquake or if there is an outbreak of SARS or something like that, and the exposure of the economy, so we talk about those risks all the time. Something might happen, hopefully it never will, but, in the meantime, what is very, very important is that we rebalance the economy, re-balance the nature of the jobs, re-balance the nature of society, so that if anything like that ever happens, it isn't such a big shock.
...
[GL] One final thing Ryan, at the moment, is that the banks are lending a lot of money, the reason why the banks are able to lend it is because their importing it from abroad, the amount of lending by banks, which is imported from abroad and recycled, is now up to 41% of our GDP, up from 10% in 2003. There is a massive amount of money being pushed at people and its easy to get it, if you are you or me who are in a comfortable position with comfortable jobs, young people are being given the same kind of money but they are taking it over 40 years. Now 40 years is not freedom. You know if I were a young person, I would be terrified of the society which said to me "you can live here, if you put this yolk around this neck for 40 years, and by the way aren't you very lucky" and everybody is happy. When you know and I know that in the past, twenty years was the norm and you paid far, far less. I just think that the choices we are making for people and for society are terrifying, if I were young. I wouldn't live here if I were young. I'd love to live here, but I would resent that so much, and I'd resent the people who are the generation ahead of me, who let it happen, did nothing and all they were worried about was whether they could borrow enough so that they could get properties for their kids who are now ten, but someday in the future might be 25 and you can pass it over to them, because that's what's going on.

If any bastard says "nobody saw this coming" one more time, I am going to chop off his head and shit George Lee's words down his neck. Well done GL for saying it. Well done for continuing to say it. Fuck the Ryan Tubridy's of this world who laughed it off and sneered at him for not having an SUV or a paddock or a sauna.


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