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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:36 pm 
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I can substitute electric heating for gas heating, or if I really want gas, I can substitute bottled butane from Calor for piped methane from Centrica. Similarly, I can substitute lamb for salmon or rice for potatoes.

What should I substitute for clean water?

For most people, a supply of reasonably microbe-free water is as close to a natural monopoly as makes no difference. If it were to be privatised, the only workable solutions (lightly chlorinated aqueous ones, of course :wink: ) would be either a highly regulated oligopoly with massive government oversight, such as exists for electricity supply in countries like the UK, or else a monopoly that is so highly regulated as to be functionally indistinguishable from a nationalised company.

A public infrastructure company providing services to numerous private supply companies might just about work, like DHL, Fedex, Securispeed and TNT using publicly funded roads, which is somewhat like the model to which the half arsed rail privatisation in the UK has finally settled, but I'm still not convinced it adds much to the mix. Even the very successful privatisation of telecoms has relied on maintaining government bodies regulating access to the electromagnetic radiation spectrum and then also needs the courts and government squashing cartels.

This is an entirely separate question from charges and metering. I am strongly in favour of people paying more for water to reflect the cost of providing it and I am agnostic, but favourably disposed towards metered per-use charging for the same reason. I'm just not in favour of handing the money raised to a certain non-resident oik.

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People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.


Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
Book I, Chapter X, Part II,


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:53 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
It still has to be delivered one way or the other.

Water should be privatized like any other commodity.

I am genuinely interested in how you think water supply should be privatized, and what benefits you think it would bring, compared to putting similar levels of effort into restructuring of a publicly owned system.



In case you haven't noticed, public ownership of water has been a complete shambles. So I'm genuinely interested in how you think public ownership can be transformed provide us with clean water at affordable price?

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"Abortion is the only event that modern liberals think too violent and obscene to portray on TV. This is not because they are squeamish or prudish. It is because if people knew what Abortion really looked like, it would destroy their pretence that it is a civilized answer to the problem of what to do about unwanted babies." ~ Peter Hitchen


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:54 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
It still has to be delivered one way or the other.

Water should be privatized like any other commodity.

I am genuinely interested in how you think water supply should be privatized, and what benefits you think it would bring, compared to putting similar levels of effort into restructuring of a publicly owned system.

He could watch an oligarch buy shares and get rich as prices go up and then dream of being that oligarch some day.



They would be nothing stopping you from buying shares so you too could become rich!

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"Abortion is the only event that modern liberals think too violent and obscene to portray on TV. This is not because they are squeamish or prudish. It is because if people knew what Abortion really looked like, it would destroy their pretence that it is a civilized answer to the problem of what to do about unwanted babies." ~ Peter Hitchen


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
It still has to be delivered one way or the other.

Water should be privatized like any other commodity.

I am genuinely interested in how you think water supply should be privatized, and what benefits you think it would bring, compared to putting similar levels of effort into restructuring of a publicly owned system.


In case you haven't noticed, public ownership of water has been a complete shambles. So I'm genuinely interested in how you think public ownership can be transformed provide us with clean water at affordable price?

No, I don't know that public ownership of water has been a complete shambles, considering the amount invested in it (or not). Maybe it's been good value for money.

Is your argument for privatisation that private ownership couldn't be any worse?

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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:32 pm 
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People get very excited about the ownership of the assets in a natural monopoly.

It doesn't matter much once the regulatory framework is strong and it is well implemented.

CIÉ is 100% state-owned but provides an atrocious service because it is barely regulated. People assume that 'soft' political direction and state funding will achieve desired objectives. They don't.

Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of Irish people use privately-owned toll roads every day. This doesn't bother anyone because the regulatory framework is strong:
-The owner cannot arbitrarily keep you off the road
-Toll charges cannot be increased too much
-They revert to state ownership after 30 years or whatever


Almost all excitement on this topic can ultimately be traced back to trade unions. For example a few years back there were plans to sell harvesting rights to Coillte forests and the unions ran a clever, totally spurious campaign suggesting that access rights to walkers would be limited.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
Almost all excitement on this topic can ultimately be traced back to trade unions. For example a few years back there were plans to sell harvesting rights to Coillte forests and the unions ran a clever, totally spurious campaign suggesting that access rights to walkers would be limited.
No, you're wrong.

Here's a thread I started on it from 2010.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=30588


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:42 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:

Here's a thread I started on it from 2010.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=30588


I am not wrong. From the Irish Times in 2012.


Quote:
A campaign against the proposed sale of some woodland assets belonging to State agency Coillte has been launched.
Trade union Impact, which claims there has been no public consultation on the issue, has called for a “full public debate” on the effects of the sale on the tourism, wood-processing and recreational sectors.
Under its plans for economic recovery, the Government plans to sell the rights to fell and sell trees on State-owned land for up to 80 years.
The union has published an illustrated booklet entitled Save Our Forests, which contains articles on the impact of the sale on rural Ireland, forest roads, biodiversity and public use.



Coillte is presumably home to lots of Impact members.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:14 am 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
Coles2 wrote:

Here's a thread I started on it from 2010.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=30588


I am not wrong. From the Irish Times in 2012.

No, you are wrong and if you bother reading that thread I linked to you'll understand why. The Impact Trade Union might have opposed the sale of Coillte, but so did just about everybody else! While this forum might be obscure, you'd be surprised at how it can inform debate.

And why you're moaning about 7% of the country not being sold for €1k/acre is beyond me, but really the Impact Trade Union at least deserve a bit of credit for being on the right side of history.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:01 am 
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I am not advocating any particular type of ownership.

My point was (and is) that the regulatory environment is far more important to outcomes than ownership is.

Utilities are quite well regulated in Ireland.

Some other semi-states (CIÉ, Bord na Móna) have weak regulatory oversight and are in many ways poor value for taxpayers' money. They do, however, employ lots of unionised workers which is why nothing much changes.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:21 pm 
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Water privatisation looks little more than an organised rip-off, - Financial Times.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:13 am 
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Joan Burton on RTE Radio One at the moment complaining that the Jobstown defendants had legal representation. You couldn't make it up.

In other news all charges against all defendants have been withdrawn.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:22 am 
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Coles2 wrote:
Joan Burton on RTE Radio One at the moment complaining that the Jobstown defendants had legal representation. You couldn't make it up.

In other news all charges against all defendants have been withdrawn.


Im sure you will agree that the story here is garda ineptitude and a mistake by the DPP in the charges they chose to bring against Murphy and his pals.

Im sure you will also agree that the actions of the protestors on the day were disgraceful.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:33 am 
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No, the story here is that Joan Burton is a washed up fool who thinks that defendants in trials shouldn't have legal representation. Try to keep up.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:40 am 
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Coles2 wrote:
No, the story here is that Joan Burton is a washed up fool who thinks that defendants in trials shouldn't have legal representation. Try to keep up.


8DD

if only i could keep up with as sharp an intellect as yours

something to aspire to

your sympathy towards her for the treatment she was subjected to is illuminating.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Water (meters) thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:54 am 
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cyrusir wrote:
your sympathy towards her for the treatment she was subjected to is illuminating.
I have no sympathy for her whatsoever. None. The evidence presented in the trial clearly showed the Gardaí in control of the situation and that the car could have been reversed out at any time. Protests are ugly and Joan Burton has been involved in enough of them over the years to know that.

Trial is over. All innocent.

Coles2, August 2015 wrote:
It seems to me from the footage that at all times the Gardaí were in control of the protest and therefore a claim of false imprisonment can't be supported.

cruysir wrote:
if only i could keep up with as sharp an intellect as yours. something to aspire to

Aim high.


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