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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:33 pm 
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Migrant

Joined: Feb 14, 2013
Posts: 1
I remember one job in a multi-national was advertised about 20 times between about 5 agencies. Causes problems because when you did the interview you find you applied more than once for the job. Which they complain about. Personally I ignore generic job ads especially from agencies. I only apply for jobs with specific and unusual detail. Visual C# developer with an interest in Kites. Well something specific and unique about the role, project but you get the idea.

Doing extra work or re-skilling in your own time is fine when you are young with no other commitments. You often can't do that when you get older. Family etc. You may not even be able to afford it. Few companies are willing to invest in time and resources in keeping their staff up to date. So that also restricts the pool of people to recruit from.

Show me the money. Pay enough and you'll get who you want. Its that simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:13 pm 
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Real Estate Developer

Joined: May 9, 2011
Posts: 803
dipole wrote:
Market in Ireland should be an extension of an open and free European labour market is European Market rate with adjustment for costs associated with weighting for expensive cities or regions like London, Frankfurt which command a premium.

http://www.djei.ie/publications/labour/ ... odate.XLSx
This excel is the problem. There are three industries where VISAs are really being abused; meat processing plants, health services and I.T.


I also believe that if your company is classified as an R&D company for hosting agreement purposes (with EURAXESS Ireland?) you can bring people in very easily on a Hosting Agreement which entitles them to work for the same employer for 2 years and then they are entitled automatically to a work permit thereafter. It is a lot less bureaucratic than the work permit procedure, its free and only takes a couple of weeks. I believe this is not widely advertised but some companies are doing it. It suits the employer paying lower salaries as they have them for two years so they can't switch employer once they realise they are being screwed.


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Neo Landlord

Joined: May 10, 2009
Posts: 225
arriving late to this thread..

jmc wrote:
I remember when more than ten years ago MS were seriously worried by the IRS sniffing around, asking why more than 40% of MS revenue seemed to find its way through various brass plate offices in Dublin and MS made a concerted effort to set up a few non trivial product dev teams in Dublin.

definitely an issue when the value in the software is directly attributed to the development. i can't help thinking that the emergence of the software-as-a-service (cloud whateva) model provides an alternative (and much more transparent) mechanism to justify the revenue allocation however. ie its hard to claim an MNC can book all revenue for EMEA in dublin when it has no engineering and very little local sales, but a lot of more compelling if the actual service is provided from here. so its no surprise that all the major cloud providers have been building data-centers here despite the geographical seperation, energy cost/security issues etc.

tbh its a much more interesting business for IDA/Gov etc, because unlike pure software development, operations and customer service is much more human capital intensive, and exactly the kind of work we should be looking to attract here.

jmc wrote:
And all the other startup wanna-be's were just very amateurish time wasters completely out of the depth......That's how little important software dev work goes on in the country

i don't think a SV comparison is necessary or valid anyhow (even though SF is full of startup wanna-bes and the hopelessly inept - its just a manageable %) We should absolutely be comparing Dublin with regional tech centers like Portland or Boston or the Nordics and on that scale I think we're doing reasonably well.

as for the rest of this thread, i'm kinda confused by it all.

- is there a real business in IT services, eh yes.
- are we cost competitive, it appears so.
- do the US MNCs hate dublin and harbour a secret desire to move their operations at the first opportunity, i don't see it - but we should do our best to convince them otherwise
- do we need to encourage foreign/EU/non-EU nationals to come here to work, abso-f-ing-lutely (why is this even a question?)
- will this mean johnny down the street wont get a job @ google - not with a senior cert and an entitlement complex, but the opportunity is there if he works hard enough

wrt wage rates being capped in software dev, imho its a global market and local rates will not deviate too far from the cost of having the work done remotely. dub rates will be < SV/London/NY rates and in line with the rest of world with a hassle premium.

-nb


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:15 pm 
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Old Time Landlord

Joined: Jan 31, 2007
Posts: 370
Location: Middle Earth
NorvilleBarnes wrote:
arriving late to this thread..
- do we need to encourage foreign/EU/non-EU nationals to come here to work, abso-f-ing-lutely (why is this even a question?)
- will this mean johnny down the street wont get a job @ google - not with a senior cert and an entitlement complex, but the opportunity is there if he works hard enough

wrt wage rates being capped in software dev, imho its a global market and local rates will not deviate too far from the cost of having the work done remotely. dub rates will be < SV/London/NY rates and in line with the rest of world with a hassle premium.

-nb


Johnny won't get a job because he's a graduate who wants 28k, and Gupta has 3 years experience and can be imported for 32k - and he cant move employer for those two years....

Johnny tells his little brother not to get into IT because Johnny ended up working the phones on shift for paypal @22k instead of accumulating the experience that Gupta has.

It's a vicious circle, the cheaper you make imported labour the less propensity for 18 year olds to enter the profession, less grads, more shortages, more campaigning from IBEC and Sean O'Sullivan to make it easier to import labour. We are never going to build or increase the cohort of engineers like this, it's a death march - does this explain why it's a question?


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:05 pm 
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Planning Tribunal Attendee

Joined: Apr 15, 2008
Posts: 1038
We have a few of those Johnnies here, under rolling ICT grad contracts which appear to have some measure of IDA support. That gives us an incentive and we've hired some excellent grads under that scheme.

It's not a simple 4k choice.

We only hire Gupta as a last resort as it's very difficult to verify experience and there have been some horror shows come through the door - people programming at a failing college student level, checking in code that compiles, but could never have been tested.


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Nov 8, 2006
Posts: 1445
owenm wrote:
The campaign for 'Open Borders' would achieve what exactly if the salary restriction were abolished - graduates from Mumbai working for 22k? Perhaps, if they did would they stay more than 2 years when they could go home to work in a contract house and probably still get 22k but would have double the lifestyle for the money. And what would the net effect be - Irish grads never materialize because they're not stupid enough to enter that food chain.

I took the trouble to comment on this article a while back, (I'm the last to comment), Sean O'Sullivan is trying to get the 30K floor removed.
http://www.openireland.com/the-issues/o ... ch-talent/


owenm, have you confused two Sean O'Sullivans? The SOS posting on openireland (http://www.linkedin.com/in/sos100) doesn't seem to be the SOS of Avego (http://www.linkedin.com/in/sosventures)


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:20 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

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Posts: 5364
owenm wrote:
Johnny won't get a job because he's a graduate who wants 28k, and Gupta has 3 years experience and can be imported for 32k - and he cant move employer for those two years....

Johnny tells his little brother not to get into IT because Johnny ended up working the phones on shift for paypal @22k instead of accumulating the experience that Gupta has.

It's a vicious circle, the cheaper you make imported labour the less propensity for 18 year olds to enter the profession, less grads, more shortages, more campaigning from IBEC and Sean O'Sullivan to make it easier to import labour. We are never going to build or increase the cohort of engineers like this, it's a death march - does this explain why it's a question?


I think Johnny and his brother need to take a long term view. I would seriously question the cop-on of any young person who was viewing their lifetime career prospects through the lens of the current IT market in Dublin. There's a whole world of opportunities out there and 30-50 years of adult working life to exploit them.

Financially, it's a good idea to pick a skill that will be useful to people with lots of money and that isn't easy for any person to acquire. Complex technology development ticks these boxes.

There are good reasons to run screaming from IT, and there are plenty of times I've wished I picked a more structured profession like medicine. But if you're doing something you love and are good at it (usually these are related) then you can find a way to make it work.

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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:17 pm 
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Neo Landlord

Joined: May 10, 2009
Posts: 225
owenm wrote:
It's a vicious circle, the cheaper you make imported labour the less propensity for 18 year olds to enter the profession, less grads, more shortages, more campaigning from IBEC and Sean O'Sullivan to make it easier to import labour. We are never going to build or increase the cohort of engineers like this, it's a death march - does this explain why it's a question?

only if you don't believe in free trade. IT (or at least the bit that sets that market rates) is a global export business... so

johnnys company sells software to wen (or frida or rajeev) - if they have grads happily writing software @ 28k they wont compete with a company that has experienced devs working for 32k elsewhere and will never succeed (of course the calculation is nowhere near this easy but hopefully you get the idea).

of course if it was a sheltered local business then they could perhaps control the market to artifically boost prices, restrict entry and maintain unrealistic wage rates, but outside of some state contracts (and websites..) thats not an option.

-nb


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Old Time Landlord

Joined: Aug 21, 2007
Posts: 377
Eschatologist wrote:
Financially, it's a good idea to pick a skill that will be useful to people with lots of money and that isn't easy for any person to acquire. Complex technology development ticks these boxes.

There are good reasons to run screaming from IT, and there are plenty of times I've wished I picked a more structured profession like medicine. But if you're doing something you love and are good at it (usually these are related) then you can find a way to make it work.


+1 to this. Being a decent programmer takes considerable smarts and a certain mindset. By the time you add on a few years experience and some useful domain expertise and skills you can get into a position where you're pretty in demand, if you've made good choices.

Getting started isn't maybe as easy as in something like medicine where there's a clear path of internships and the like, but if you're a student with the gumption to build some sort of portfolio and maybe teach yourself a hot technology or two just to set yourself apart and make the CV a bit more interesting (so right now stuff like Erlang, Scala, Go or even MongoDB or whatever) then it won't be a problem.

So, it comes down to this: software/IT, like most careers, will reward those with aptitude and passion for what they do (making 100K isn't bad, no?). Less aptitude or less interest and you will get lesser rewards, again, like most professions. Make bad career choices and you won't progress as quickly - again, hardly unique to technology - and the periodic upswings provide a great opportunity to reskill yourself and jump into a different area where there's more demand, so even poor choices are more easily fixable than in many other careers IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:42 pm 
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Neo Landlord

Joined: Jun 14, 2009
Posts: 284
jammyBastard wrote:
I've met bitter developers in their 40s who've now given up on this. They believed it would happen because they knew the few people in category 1 that were successful on that path. Many play musical chairs within and around different companies, frustrated at the lack of opportunities, and end up on less money than they made at 30 due to bad luck being made redundant somewhere, quitting to get out of a poisonous company, or paycuts at a struggling company. Those people tend to be among those that are negative on IT careers, because the career they believe they were 'owed' (because they got 500 points and a 1h degree, or whatever) never materialized. It's not enough to be bright, nor is it enough to be putting in a good honest shift - I spotted that after 5 years, made some tweaks, asked the right questions of the right people and have positioned myself very well.


Good post. I spent a couple of years as an interested programmer putting in honest shifts but felt I wasn't achieving anything. Always making some component or learning some technology but never feeling like I was creating anything. I only really started getting a buzz out of it when I joined a new company with barely any IT and with daft working practices where I could build up apps for everyone else to use from scratch. To become productive I had to find some problem to solve which had personal meaning - I just couldn't get excited about developing meaningless insurance or telecoms components.

I once went for interview at a large IT multinational with a multi-thousand poster from this forum (he used to use his real name as his username). One of those awkward interviews where it felt like a confrontation (no thanks!). But a good case for internet anonymity - I knew all about the guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:34 am 
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Old Time Landlord

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Posts: 370
Location: Middle Earth
Eschatologist wrote:
I think Johnny and his brother need to take a long term view. I would seriously question the cop-on of any young person who was viewing their lifetime career prospects through the lens of the current IT market in Dublin. There's a whole world of opportunities out there and 30-50 years of adult working life to exploit them.


Johnny and his brother aren't necessarily looking at the current IT market, they have several years of salary surveys available online - thats not a short term view. If it's trending down or the upper range does not look appealing.....then it's not a long term prospect for a copped on young person.

http://www.brightwater.ie/salary-survey.aspx


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:04 am 
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Of Systemic Importance

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Posts: 5364
owenm wrote:
Johnny and his brother aren't necessarily looking at the current IT market, they have several years of salary surveys available online - thats not a short term view. If it's trending down or the upper range does not look appealing.....then it's not a long term prospect for a copped on young person.

http://www.brightwater.ie/salary-survey.aspx


A copped on young person might consider salary surveys to be an indicator of costs, not income.

_________________
"It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favour"
Tyrion Lannister


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:33 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Feb 6, 2007
Posts: 4201
metalmike wrote:
I had an interesting incident a few months ago. I was asked by a friend if I knew anyone with a particular skillset - I did and put them in touch. I asked the friend if they had interviewed the person - they said yes but they hadn't hired him. He had asked for X a day but they were only prepared to go to X-100. This annoyed me because I had told the friend that this guy would be looking for X. Apparently the main HR person had said that the guy was lying about his current rate which he had told them was X-25. The HR Person apparently 'knew' that the candidates current company didn't pay more than X-100. The conspiracy theorist in me would be worried if I wasn't also aware that the candidate's current rate genuinely is X-25 ( I talked to the guy to sort of apologise for the bad steer and he told me that he liked the company and its location and if they had offered him X-50 he would probably have taken the job!).

This is happening in other sectors as well. I'm in engineering (permanent staff job) and I got a call re contract work at a pharma plant in Dublin. It was a daily rather than hourly rate and it was spectacularly low considering what contract rates have been in the past. The recruiter was the amiable sort so I chatted to them about uptake and they said the rate itself was putting a lot of people off but the real killer was that it was a daily rate. That's bad because the employer has a bit of a rep for pushing long hours that folk won't get paid for and the qualifications required aren't exactly fresh graduate territory stuff.

The only people they'll attract are unemployed or under-qualified engineers. People with the qualifications required are leaving the country rather than take such low rates. The industry as a whole seems very determined to drive down rates but folk are not going to stay in such an expensive country and let their earning power fall below that of secondary school teachers when they could get so much more elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:03 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Dec 28, 2006
Posts: 5579
Action plan for Jobs.
http://www.djei.ie/publications/2013APJ.pdf

"Reduce the wage threshold limit, where appropriate, for work permits in key skills areas (e.g. ICT graduates and technical sales with foreign language skills). "

As if the thresholds weren't low enough already and as if there weren't enough potential employees within the E.U.

This isn't an action plan for jobs, this is an action plan to turn Ireland in to the I.T sweatshop of Europe just so that Ireland can get a 2% slice of whatever profit the MNCs choose to funnel through the Irish tax haven at the expense of the rest of Europe.


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin's tech tigerland - sham or real deal?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:32 am 
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PilatusP wrote:
Show me the money. Pay enough and you'll get who you want. Its that simple.

+1 You've heard of 'performance related pay'? Well there's also 'pay related performance'.

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