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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:13 pm 
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2Pack wrote:
FirstBass wrote:
And private fees are in reach of middle income people should they so wish ( though not for much longer if the ideologues get their way)


And if they want to change schools there wont be any of your Monkstown CBSs left. :(


Where?

If you are referring to CBC Monkstown. Yes Deputy Quinn is doing a bang up job helping to destroy schools like that. I predict half of fee paying schools will be gone by the end of the decade if this ill informed witchhunt continues with the Irish Times cheerleading it all the way. Enrollments are going through the floor. This has been the Irish Times pet for years and they have championed this debate for a long time. The IT have never looked properly at why some schools fail (LOCATION) and why others do well (LOCATION). There is a reason why public schools in South Dublin like Muckross and the two Coláiste's do well, the IT ignore it and go on about fee paying schools.

If Blackrock College was in a spot of bother I have no doubt that Quinn would cease this though, how and ever with nearly 2000 pupils they are safe. :x

The result of these closures this will be:

- More expensive private schools than ever. These will not be eliminated, ever.
- The parents who spend their money currently on these schools but will be priced out in the future will continue to spend money on their children's education in other ways (more grinds, more language trips ect) More Institute of Education type schools will open which will be very pricey but 2 year Leaving Cert grinds schools, again the "inequality" will continue in other ways.
- A worse public system with the Government footing the bill for the closures of fee paying schools
- Best teachers will now be plucked from the State system. The current system of all fee paying and public teachers being under the same Union agreements will be gone. We will get more Institute of Education type poaching with the now even more cashed up fee paying sector and grind schools, free from Government intervention, able to go after teacher with above Union rated salaries. Results, worse teachers in the public sector.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:23 pm 
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Location: Tullamore
peterpanican wrote:
- Best teachers will now be plucked from the State system. The current system of all fee paying and public teachers being under the same Union agreements will be gone. We will get more Institute of Education type poaching with the now even more cashed up fee paying sector and grind schools, free from Government intervention, able to go after teacher with above Union rated salaries. Results, worse teachers in the public sector.

You were donig well until that. Perhaps the IoEs will steal, but the other private schools offer permanent positions and there just isn't the demand for IoEs.

All the Irish teachers I had at the secondary I went to were rubbish. The science teacher was rubbish. Both the art teachers were ignorant bollixes - one by 50 years of teaching the same stuff, the other because I wasn't any good and he wasn't prepared to take an interest :) . The history/geography teacher was notoriously rubbish. Religious teaching was a farce and confirmed my atheism. One of the sports teachers took an inappropriate interest in boys in showers and was moved overseas.

What can I say? Private school in Ireland, an elite business...

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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:24 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Jun 20, 2010
Posts: 3052
peterpanican wrote:
If you are referring to CBC Monkstown. Yes Deputy Quinn is doing a bang up job helping to destroy schools like that. I predict half of fee paying schools will be gone by the end of the decade if this ill informed witchhunt continues with the Irish Times cheerleading it all the way. Enrollments are going through the floor. This has been the Irish Times pet for years and they have championed this debate for a long time. The IT have never looked properly at why some schools fail (LOCATION) and why others do well (LOCATION). There is a reason why public schools in South Dublin like Muckross and the two Coláiste's do well, the IT ignore it and go on about fee paying schools.

If Blackrock College was in a spot of bother I have no doubt that Quinn would cease this though, how and ever with nearly 2000 pupils they are safe. :x

The result of these closures this will be:

- More expensive private schools than ever. These will not be eliminated, ever.
- The parents who spend their money currently on these schools but will be priced out in the future will continue to spend money on their children's education in other ways (more grinds, more language trips ect) More Institute of Education type schools will open which will be very pricey but 2 year Leaving Cert grinds schools, again the "inequality" will continue in other ways.
- A worse public system with the Government footing the bill for the closures of fee paying schools
- Best teachers will now be plucked from the State system. The current system of all fee paying and public teachers being under the same Union agreements will be gone. We will get more Institute of Education type poaching with the now even more cashed up fee paying sector and grind schools, free from Government intervention, able to go after teacher with above Union rated salaries. Results, worse teachers in the public sector.


This is all nonsense and strawmen. We've refuted this nonsense repeatedly in the other thread.
Irish Times is very soft on fee paying schools. It shows your shrillness that you object to them even having an article about it. And they've had several in support over the last while - see other thread for George hook, and the Belvedere guy.

This "witchhunt" is far from "uninformed". You just don't like it so you call it a witchhunt.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:25 pm 
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BlameGame wrote:
This is all nonsense and strawmen. We've refuted this nonsense repeatedly in the other thread.
Irish Times is very soft on fee paying schools. It shows your shrillness that you object to them even having an article about it. And they've had several in support over the last while - see other thread for George hook, and the Belvedere guy.

This "witchhunt" is far from "uninformed". You just don't like it so you call it a witchhunt.

Well, forgive us all if we take your views on education with a pinch of salt...

_________________
"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:33 pm 
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Joined: Jun 20, 2010
Posts: 3052
yoganmahew wrote:
BlameGame wrote:
This is all nonsense and strawmen. We've refuted this nonsense repeatedly in the other thread.
Irish Times is very soft on fee paying schools. It shows your shrillness that you object to them even having an article about it. And they've had several in support over the last while - see other thread for George hook, and the Belvedere guy.

This "witchhunt" is far from "uninformed". You just don't like it so you call it a witchhunt.

Well, forgive us all if we take your views on education with a pinch of salt...


It's pretty mad that someone would put inequality in inverted commas on this. Two children who live beside a selective fee paying school. Both want to go. One gets to go. One doesn't. There's no inverted commas....that's just inequality. State supported inequality.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:35 pm 
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Posts: 9020
BlameGame wrote:
peterpanican wrote:
If you are referring to CBC Monkstown. Yes Deputy Quinn is doing a bang up job helping to destroy schools like that. I predict half of fee paying schools will be gone by the end of the decade if this ill informed witchhunt continues with the Irish Times cheerleading it all the way. Enrollments are going through the floor. This has been the Irish Times pet for years and they have championed this debate for a long time. The IT have never looked properly at why some schools fail (LOCATION) and why others do well (LOCATION). There is a reason why public schools in South Dublin like Muckross and the two Coláiste's do well, the IT ignore it and go on about fee paying schools.

If Blackrock College was in a spot of bother I have no doubt that Quinn would cease this though, how and ever with nearly 2000 pupils they are safe. :x

The result of these closures this will be:

- More expensive private schools than ever. These will not be eliminated, ever.
- The parents who spend their money currently on these schools but will be priced out in the future will continue to spend money on their children's education in other ways (more grinds, more language trips ect) More Institute of Education type schools will open which will be very pricey but 2 year Leaving Cert grinds schools, again the "inequality" will continue in other ways.

- A worse public system with the Government footing the bill for the closures of fee paying schools
- Best teachers will now be plucked from the State system. The current system of all fee paying and public teachers being under the same Union agreements will be gone. We will get more Institute of Education type poaching with the now even more cashed up fee paying sector and grind schools, free from Government intervention, able to go after teacher with above Union rated salaries. Results, worse teachers in the public sector.


This is all nonsense and strawmen. We've refuted this nonsense repeatedly in the other thread.

I must have missed the refutation of the bolded points, which seem pretty strong. Can you briefly reprise the argument or perhaps link to the refutation of how people willing to spend more on education will not arise if most currently private schools are forced into the 'free' system?


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:36 pm 
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Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31799
Location: Tullamore
BlameGame wrote:
Two children who live beside a selective fee paying school. Both want to go. One gets to go. One doesn't. There's no inverted commas....that's just inequality. State supported inequality.

Two children live beside a totally state supported school with no fees. One gets to go, the other doesn't. Why? One's name was put down at birth, the other moved into the area later...

So what's your point paleface? Pick a system. They're all shit.

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"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:45 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Jun 20, 2010
Posts: 3052
Barney Gumble wrote:
BlameGame wrote:
peterpanican wrote:
If you are referring to CBC Monkstown. Yes Deputy Quinn is doing a bang up job helping to destroy schools like that. I predict half of fee paying schools will be gone by the end of the decade if this ill informed witchhunt continues with the Irish Times cheerleading it all the way. Enrollments are going through the floor. This has been the Irish Times pet for years and they have championed this debate for a long time. The IT have never looked properly at why some schools fail (LOCATION) and why others do well (LOCATION). There is a reason why public schools in South Dublin like Muckross and the two Coláiste's do well, the IT ignore it and go on about fee paying schools.

If Blackrock College was in a spot of bother I have no doubt that Quinn would cease this though, how and ever with nearly 2000 pupils they are safe. :x

The result of these closures this will be:

- More expensive private schools than ever. These will not be eliminated, ever.
- The parents who spend their money currently on these schools but will be priced out in the future will continue to spend money on their children's education in other ways (more grinds, more language trips ect) More Institute of Education type schools will open which will be very pricey but 2 year Leaving Cert grinds schools, again the "inequality" will continue in other ways.

- A worse public system with the Government footing the bill for the closures of fee paying schools
- Best teachers will now be plucked from the State system. The current system of all fee paying and public teachers being under the same Union agreements will be gone. We will get more Institute of Education type poaching with the now even more cashed up fee paying sector and grind schools, free from Government intervention, able to go after teacher with above Union rated salaries. Results, worse teachers in the public sector.


This is all nonsense and strawmen. We've refuted this nonsense repeatedly in the other thread.

I must have missed the refutation of the bolded points, which seem pretty strong. Can you briefly reprise the argument or perhaps link to the refutation of how people willing to spend more on education will not arise if most currently private schools are forced into the 'free' system?


Come off it. On the other thread it is accepted that private schooling will exist. I just don't want to subsidise it. You expect me to weep because this guy won't be able to afford to segregate but others can? That's a strong point to you, is it?

Grinds and language trips growing exponentially? Who knows. Who cares.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:47 pm 
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BlameGame wrote:
Come off it. On the other thread it is accepted that private schooling will exist. I just don't want to subsidise it. You expect me to weep because this guy won't be able to afford to segregate but others can? That's a strong point to you, is it?

Grinds and language trips growing exponentially? Who knows. Who cares.

Um...I thought you cared about educational inequality?


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:58 pm 
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Posts: 3052
Barney Gumble wrote:
BlameGame wrote:
Come off it. On the other thread it is accepted that private schooling will exist. I just don't want to subsidise it. You expect me to weep because this guy won't be able to afford to segregate but others can? That's a strong point to you, is it?

Grinds and language trips growing exponentially? Who knows. Who cares.

Um...I thought you cared about educational inequality?


People can use their own money as they see fit.

However State supported inequality shames us all.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:06 am 
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BlameGame wrote:
People can use their own money as they see fit.

However State supported inequality shames us all.

That's a valid position; so you prefer the flavour of inequality that prevails in the UK?


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:41 am 
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Posts: 3314
BlameGame wrote:
People can use their own money as they see fit.



Thanks. I choose to use my money to

- employ extra teachers
- employ a school nurse
- subsidise the education of less advantaged children
- pay for better science, sports and music facilities
- pay for extra curricular activities to give my kid a rounder education
- support the charitable works of the school

I do this on top of the tax money that is used to pay the teachers in the school.

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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:04 am 
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I am sure the UK system has evolved in it own way with its own influences different to ours. I think they pay in full, which is proper order.

I can't help note the irony of using the UK system as a bogeyman, given how eh, sympathetic, some Irish private school products and parents are to the UK! A woman on the radio said her son was in "Prep School" :lol: :lol: :lol: Am I paying for that charade too! His little cap and blazer and a "tuck box"!

You don't get to carve out general tax receipts to your own projects such as segregationist education. There's longstanding tax law on that based on a challenge around Motor tax not having to get spent on roads.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:26 am 
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BlameGame wrote:
I am sure the UK system has evolved in it own way with its own influences different to ours. I think they pay in full, which is proper order.

I can't help note the irony of using the UK system as a bogeyman, given how eh, sympathetic, some Irish private school products and parents are to the UK! A woman on the radio said her son was in "Prep School" :lol: :lol: :lol: Am I paying for that charade too! His little cap and blazer and a "tuck box"!



France has a similar system to ours. The UK system is horribly elitist, producing the Etonians currently running the country, totally divorced from the reality of life for large parts of the country. I think our system, and the French system, is immeasurably better than theirs

You have an ideological problem with fee-charging schools, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about it. You'd prefer to see the education system thrown into chaos and damaged for everyone to satisfy your ideological whims. And you're bringing some nationalistic anti-Brit inferiority complex into it as well now.

I asked in the other thread and nobody was able to answer sensibly - paint me a picture of how Ireland's education system would be better if funding was withdrawn from fee-charging schools. I can foresee lots of losers, no winners.

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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:33 am 
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Posts: 630
Dont know anything about Ireland but the UK system is a total joke.

If youre in a bad area, you are utterly, utterly fucked. Theres no other word for it.
If youre in a good area, then you pay for it in housing and, by extension, council taxes.

Faith schools are popular and very oversubscribed.

Private (public) schools can be fairly expensive but not always as well performing as state schools, reason being that all you need is money to get in, not smarts.

That leaves the Grammar schools.
These are state schools that have entrance exams, thus there is no financial barrier to entry.
There is no geographical barrier either; only how far you want your kids to travel.
They are very controversial over here, with the left in particular trying to get rid of them.
(God forbid a child from a disadvantaged background should have the opportunity to succeed!)
A majority of kids in these schools would be from the economic middle - 3/4 bed semi land - not the kids of millionaires.
The results they produce though are orders of magnitude above the 'open entry' schools, even in the same area.

The UK also produce league tables of results from their exam results which can be viewed online.


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