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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Barney Gumble wrote:
ray wrote:
Maybe you should try reading it another way, it is not about restricting advantage, it is about equality of opportunity. People who can afford state subsidised fee paying schools will still be able to buy their children advantage, it wont be state supported.

So it's really just a symbolic gesture with an acknowledgement that it won't actually benefit anybody?


By anybody, do you actually mean zero people or is that a more general statement :wink:

Do you not consider equality of educational opportunity a societal benefit?

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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
ray wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
I find it curious that these discussions always seem to focus on money, rather than anything substantive about the nature of the education.

Almost as if nobody actually cares what happens in the school, just so long as no one else's children are allowed to gain any sort of relative advantage.


Maybe you should try reading it another way, it is not about restricting advantage, it is about equality of opportunity. People who can afford state subsidised fee paying schools will still be able to buy their children advantage, it wont be state supported.


Thanks for perfectly proving my point. :D


I don't get your point. First principles of state education should be equality of opportunity/access. I have no issue with the idea that education as it stands is antiquated and needs to be addressed but that's not the points that I was addressing.

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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:32 pm 
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ray wrote:
Barney Gumble wrote:
ray wrote:
Maybe you should try reading it another way, it is not about restricting advantage, it is about equality of opportunity. People who can afford state subsidised fee paying schools will still be able to buy their children advantage, it wont be state supported.

So it's really just a symbolic gesture with an acknowledgement that it won't actually benefit anybody?


By anybody, do you actually mean zero people or is that a more general statement :wink:

Do you not consider equality of educational opportunity a societal benefit?

But your proposed changes won't lead to equality of opportunity, will they? The people whose parents are willing and able to spend more will still be at an advantage. So it would be a purely symbolic change - a nod towards equality that will make absolutely no difference to those on the ground.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Barney Gumble wrote:
But your proposed changes won't lead to equality of opportunity, will they? The people whose parents are willing and able to spend more will still be at an advantage. So it would be a purely symbolic change - a nod towards equality that will make absolutely no difference to those on the ground.


Ok, maybe I should be specific but I think that I have in other posts, equality of access/opportunity to the state funded education system. The state funded system should in itself be able to produce well educated students. Systems can be gamed, so some people will do that with grinds and other services. The state should not be helping people to game the system by allowing them to exclude children on a financial basis.

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- Cicero


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:50 pm 
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ray wrote:
Ok, maybe I should be specific but I think that I have in other posts, equality of access/opportunity to the state funded education system. The state funded system should in itself be able to produce well educated students. Systems can be gamed, so some people will do that with grinds and other services. The state should not be helping people to game the system by allowing them to exclude children on a financial basis.

Ray, I agree with you on the ideal situation (and I would agree with 2Pack that the state system IS capable of producing very well educated students). On the other hand, if you change the system we have, you may have dramatic unintended consequences that make the situation worse.

For example, if you force most of the private schools into the 'free' system, you'll still have people with more resources in a position to game the system. People will buy homes in the catchment areas of the good schools, driving up the prices in those areas and ensuring social homogeneity not only in the school but in the neighbourhood of the school. Under the current system, you still have the option to live in a cheaper house in - say - Ballinteer, and spend the money you save on your cheaper house in putting you kid into St. Mary's or whatever.

It seems to me that it's impossible to design a system that is scrupulously fair, and attempting to do so may just do more harm than good. I speak as someone who would be perfectly happy to see my (notional :nin ) kids in a good 'free' school.

Here's a couple of links to back up the higher property prices/better schools argument - one from the LSE and one from your favourite newspaper and mine, the Daily Torygraph.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:51 pm 
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ray wrote:
Barney Gumble wrote:
ray wrote:
Maybe you should try reading it another way, it is not about restricting advantage, it is about equality of opportunity. People who can afford state subsidised fee paying schools will still be able to buy their children advantage, it wont be state supported.

So it's really just a symbolic gesture with an acknowledgement that it won't actually benefit anybody?


By anybody, do you actually mean zero people or is that a more general statement :wink:

Do you not consider equality of educational opportunity a societal benefit?


Absolutely. Tell me how you would make access to educational more equal than today.

Tell me how it's going to work.

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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:38 pm 
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FirstBass wrote:
ray wrote:
Absolutely. Tell me how you would make access to educational more equal than today.

Tell me how it's going to work.


It is axiomatic that state subsidised fee charging schools create unequal access to state education. Why would I have to show that?

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- Cicero


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:20 pm 
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ray wrote:
FirstBass wrote:
ray wrote:
Absolutely. Tell me how you would make access to educational more equal than today.

Tell me how it's going to work.


It is axiomatic that state subsidised fee charging schools create unequal access to state education. Why would I have to show that?


You keep repeating the same thing. You and BlameGame and others who complain about the current system repeat the same phrases decrying the lack of equality, often with snide and false characterisations of pupils and parents. I disagree, I think the structure of the system prevents a sharp imbalance between public and private, resulting in greater equality overall.

But ignore that for a moment, let's say you are right and the system is less fair and equal than it might be. What I am asking is for your solution. How can we make the opportunities more equal than they are now?

If you want the funding of the education system to change from the way it has been since free secondary education was introduced in the 1960's, explain how, and what improvements you anticipate. The potential downsides have been laid out many times, in this thread and others but there has been so effort, at any time, to find benefits for the change.

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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:08 pm 
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If there was no subsidy to fee paying schools, why would they take any notice of the national curriculum? They could drop Irish and religion and give their students huge advantages at college level... well, apart from in Irish, I guess...

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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:27 pm 
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FirstBass wrote:
I disagree, I think the structure of the system prevents a sharp imbalance between public and private, resulting in greater equality overall.


Well. by a happy circumstance this all results in the best outcome for you Just enough for you to pay and maintain your lifestyle. And other parents who cannot afford the school can make alternative arrangements and keep off the grass!

And you decry talk of changing it and challenge anyone who would to predict the outcome of change. And invent scenarios of what you say will definitely happen if there is change.

On your logic why don't we raise the subsidy then. Why don't we pay your capital expenditure cost in the school too? There'd be teachers salaries, capex and fees for the school nurse etc. Wonderful result for you.

Of course that would be silly, as is the notion that private school fees vs subsidy trade-off is at the absolute optimum level for the taxpayer now.

Let's be fair and phase it out over 5 years. Grandparents can chip in and fund the real cost of segregation. People can get private school fees mortgages. I don't care. Who knows house prices might go down not up.


Last edited by BlameGame on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:31 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
If there was no subsidy to fee paying schools, why would they take any notice of the national curriculum? They could drop Irish and religion and give their students huge advantages at college level... well, apart from in Irish, I guess...



I believe Irish is still a matriculation requirement for NUI but not Trinity. Not 100% sure.

Your point is good though - you could even have specialisation eg some Fine Arts secondary schools, some Tech schools etc. Happens in some other countries I believe, for better or for worse.

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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:21 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
If there was no subsidy to fee paying schools, why would they take any notice of the national curriculum? They could drop Irish and religion and give their students huge advantages at college level... well, apart from in Irish, I guess...



I believe Irish is still a matriculation requirement for NUI but not Trinity. Not 100% sure.

Your point is good though - you could even have specialisation eg some Fine Arts secondary schools, some Tech schools etc. Happens in some other countries I believe, for better or for worse.


Looks like you're correct. But you wont find any ranting and raving about, "inequality due to birth location" around here. (The kids of recently arrived foreign nationals will soon be wiping the floor with the home grown kids, given their language advantage.)

http://www.nui.ie/college/entry-requirements.asp
Generally speaking, anybody applying to an NUI institution who was born and had all their education in the Republic of Ireland must present Irish (achieving at least Grade D at Ordinary Level) for Matriculation purposes. Students not born in the Republic of Ireland or educated for an extended period outside Ireland may apply to NUI for an exemption from the Irish language requirement. Students with specific learning difficulties affecting language acquisition (dyslexia) may also apply for exemption from Irish. To apply for an exemption, it is necessary to send in a completed Exemption Application Form and other relevant material.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:41 am 
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HiFi wrote:
(The kids of recently arrived foreign nationals will soon be wiping the floor with the home grown kids, given their language advantage.)
How do recently arrived foreign nationals have a language advantage? In the vast majority of cases English is not their first language. :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:28 am 
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Coles2 wrote:
HiFi wrote:
(The kids of recently arrived foreign nationals will soon be wiping the floor with the home grown kids, given their language advantage.)
How do recently arrived foreign nationals have a language advantage? In the vast majority of cases English is not their first language. :)


I've been watching this for a while in my neighbourhood. In general they have to apply much more effort to learning the language that the native population and also tend to have a parent pushing them and that seems to pay off after a while.


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 Post subject: Re: The Irish Education system. Bork central
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:47 am 
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Private schools are almost a sideshow. They don't exist in much of the country at all, mainly only in parts of Dublin. Quinns squabbles with them play well with labour supporters south of the grand canal perhaps but elsewhere who cares.

Meanwhile Quinn will crash the rest of the system as well. We'll be left with a load of state controlled schools of frequently dubious merit catering for every disadvantage imaginable and delivering nothing of any long term economic value.

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