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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:36 am 
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Of Systemic Importance

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Coles2 wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Coles, don't be ridiculous. Its the responsibility of the State to house people who cannot afford to source accommodation for themselves, not whichever random landlord they happen to be buying housing from at the time.
Are you suggesting that legislation governing the provision of private rented housing doesn't exist? I think you'll find it does. The state imposes all kinds of conditions and regulations that inform the relationship between tenant and landlord. This is no different. In commercial leases similar clauses can be inserted so why not in residential? The idea that anyone could think that property rights are inalienable is not just 'ridiculous' but is actually completely absurd.

So let's get back to the moral argument. Who wants to make the moral case for evicting a family into certain homelessness?

We don't require restaurants to feed poor people for nothing and we don't require landlords to house poor people for nothing.

This is nothing to do with inalienable property rights. This is about paying for what you use, directly or through State supports.

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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Property Magnate

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Posts: 625
Coles2 wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:

So let's get back to the moral argument. Who wants to make the moral case for evicting a family into certain homelessness?


Nothing to do with the landlord. The previous posters point re restaurants is well made


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:49 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
So let's get back to the moral argument. Who wants to make the moral case for evicting a family into certain homelessness?

We don't require restaurants to feed poor people for nothing and we don't require landlords to house poor people for nothing.

This is nothing to do with inalienable property rights. This is about paying for what you use, directly or through State supports.

Sorry but what in the name of God are you talking about?

We're not discussing cases where the tenant can't or won't pay the rent. We're discussing cases where a landlord wants to evict a tenant who will be made homeless by the eviction. I was very clear on this (six times) so it's a bit disappointing that you missed it. Your restaurant analogy doesn't apply.

cyrusir wrote:
Nothing to do with the landlord. The previous posters point re restaurants is well made
Clearly you're not paying attention either, and yes, it has everything to do with the landlord.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Posts: 625
Coles2 wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
So let's get back to the moral argument. Who wants to make the moral case for evicting a family into certain homelessness?

We don't require restaurants to feed poor people for nothing and we don't require landlords to house poor people for nothing.

This is nothing to do with inalienable property rights. This is about paying for what you use, directly or through State supports.

Sorry but what in the name of God are you talking about?

We're not discussing cases where the tenant can't or won't pay the rent. We're discussing cases where a landlord wants to evict a tenant who will be made homeless by the eviction. I was very clear on this (six times) so it's a bit disappointing that you missed it. Your restaurant analogy doesn't apply.

cyrusir wrote:
Nothing to do with the landlord. The previous posters point re restaurants is well made
Clearly you're not paying attention either, and yes, it has everything to do with the landlord.


Clearly you aren’t paying attention , why exactly will she be made homeless after the eviction , is everyone who rents who gets evicted automatically classed as homeless now ? That will have your friends in the homeless industry very excited .

What they do after they are lawfully evicted is no concern of his , the same as any other landlord when a tenant leaves .

Why can’t they rent somewhere else ? Why should the council be responsible for finding her somewhere to live , it’s staggering .

And that creep Boyd Barrett is encouraging this carry on.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Ok, one more time for the slow learners.

In a situation where a tenant is paying the market rent, is not in arrears, has not breached the terms of the lease agreement etc, but the landlord issues notice to vacate, and the tenant is unable to secure similar suitable accommodation at the market rent, then the landlord should be obliged to either 1) assist in providing that accommodation, or 2) delay the notice to vacate until suitable accommodation is secured. This would be a simple measure to avoid families falling into homelessness and it would not be necessary except in a dysfunctional housing market like Ireland.

I know you guys are really having difficulty with this one. I feel your pain. It must seem like an assault on your understanding of reality; the view that the ownership of property must take precedence over all human and civil rights. It trumps Mary, mother of God!. It puts the our Lord Jesus in the stable with the donkeys! Hold your deeds with their burdens and their easements close to your chest for comfort! Raise the rent and praise the Lord! Strike down this evil sinner who would blaspheme against your property rights!


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Perhaps your own view of reality needs to be assessed.

Why should any individual be forced to house somebody else?

Perhaps the state should be obliged to buy the house offer it to the family in your hypothecical example.


Last edited by Luan on Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Luan wrote:
Perhaps your own view of reality needs to be assessed.

Why should any individual be obligned to house somebody else?
It's actually part of the tenancy agreement? The tenant comes to an arrangement with the owner of the property ('the landlord') and they agree an amount of money in return for the use of the property.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:33 pm 
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The level of debate on this site has reached a whole new level in the last 24 hours! It's either trolling or flat earthism.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:01 pm 
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FreeFallin wrote:
The level of debate on this site has reached a whole new level in the last 24 hours! It's either trolling or flat earthism.

What's really needed to solve the housing crisis is for all builders and tradesmen to be required to devote one day a week to building social housing for free. Anyone who objects is clearly a heartless Thatcherite. I haven't served an apprenticeship but I am fairly handy at assembling IKEA flatpack furniture


Last edited by slasher on Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:03 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
Luan wrote:
Perhaps your own view of reality needs to be assessed.

Why should any individual be obligned to house somebody else?
It's actually part of the tenancy agreement? The tenant comes to an arrangement with the owner of the property ('the landlord') and they agree an amount of money in return for the use of the property.


Yes, both parties entered an agreement. However it was not one of indifferenate duration i.e. both parties are able to end the lease after serving the appropriate notice.

Again why should an individual be forced to house somebody else?


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:26 am 
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I wouldn't agree with the how of Coles arguments here, though I'd agree with the What I think he'd like us to get to... this situation just wouldn't come up in the vast majority of EU countries, where tenant rights are far stronger and the landlord can't evict just cos they want to.

It seems to be an Anglo-influenced view of property owner's rights (UK, US, Aus, NZ and unfortunately Ireland).


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:36 am 
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And as a society we choose that our laws reflect our morality.

If the housing crisis has reached the stage where a family who have their tenancy terminated through no fault of their own will inevitably become homeless, then it's clear that a far lesser wrong is committed by them remaining in the property until alternative suitable accommodation is found. I'm sure we can all agree on that, right?

I know you can't get your heads around the concept that a regulation such as this could apply on tenancy agreement but it's actually not unusual. There's already a raft of regulation already in place and this would actually be a very minor addition. Take for instance Part 4 tenancy rules and the periods of notice. Imagine the sweat and bullshit that you chaps would have been posted up when those rules were first mooted! But it happened and the world was better for it.

A simple regulation such as this would ensure that families couldn't be evicted into homelessness through no fault of their own.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:42 am 
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"Outrageous! Ridiculous! SJW! Marxist! Social Democrat! Shinner! Feminazi! Blah blah...bullshit bullshit..."

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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:20 am 
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Well if they are paying their rent without issue, they are a lot higher up the chain than David Hall's strategic defaulter brigade. Who remain untouchable. I'd give you that.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:42 am 
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Indeed. But setting aside the strategic defaulter there is quite a contrast between the mortgage holder who can't pay their debts but "must be kept in their home at all costs" and the tenant family who can by made homeless at the whim of some parasitic rentier despite never missing a payment. Is that what we want as a society?


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