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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:20 am 
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I understand a quasi fact, but what's an "RT"?

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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:24 am 
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yoganmahew wrote:
I understand a quasi fact, but what's an "RT"?


RT Retweet I presume...I cant post a pic or have forgotten how to but I'm seeing a meme with Observer name and Darth Vaders image saying " I am your father " :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:25 am 
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yoganmahew wrote:
I understand a quasi fact, but what's an "RT"?

Even as a non-Twitteratus, I'm gonna guess "ReTweet"? Unless it's an allusion to Russia Today, that renowned source of quasi facts.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:38 am 
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Brian going full twitterati this morning, rightly bemoaning the make up of the panel then this ..Can post the Matheson pic of the brochure..this link might work https://twitter.com/brianmlucey

brian lucey ‏@brianmlucey 3m3 minutes ago

brian lucey Retweeted Oireachtas Retort

If this lady is from Matheson maybe #marian would ask her about this?


Dublin's Matheson advertise a 2.5% corporation tax rate in brochure for Chinese companies last year


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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:42 am 
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ps200306 wrote:
Unless it's an allusion to Russia Today, that renowned source of quasi facts.

That's what I thought :D

Thank you both!

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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:43 am 
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ps200306 wrote:
jmc wrote:
Here is an interesting list of current high tech players in Ireland..

http://www.top1000.ie/industries/technology

The really interesting number is revenue per employee.

You have to go down to number 12 before you find Intel, who actual do something substantive in Ireland. Their revenue per employee is around $500K... which is not bad. Any company whose Irish operation has a revenue per employee much above that is a tax scam operation. Which is almost all of them.

Even back in the early 90s when I used to know some folk at Apple Ireland, they used to cite $1m revenue per employee.


They actually averaged around $600K/$700K back then. Around $300K on selling computers. A typical software company made about $300k/400K. Although a lot only got $200K.. Numbers have not changed that much since then, accounting for inflation. Consumer electronics is a low net margins business.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:44 am 
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Ouch :lol:

14m: @brianmlucey Have they your number Brian I hear your man Observer on ThePropertyPin is free on Sundays

bijlmer arena


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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:07 pm 
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http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colm-mccarthy/us-treasury-is-owed-the-tax-that-apple-has-avoided-35019476.html

Colm Mc seems to confirm the connection of the 26% GDP jump to Apple in the above (as raised here during the week). He also pulls off the stroke of using Quantum Mechanics to elucidate the whole thing which is a bit of a Tour de Force.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:13 pm 
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So how do we square this with th statement by the Revenue Commissioners that:

Quote:
about half of the increase in corporation tax receipts is from a small number of large multinationals and is attributable to a variety of reasons including improved trading conditions, positive currency fluctuations, some timing factors and a number of one-off payments.


It seems that this is, at best, misleading at at worst false. If the Dail is being mislead by Revenue, there's a bigger problem re tax policy.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:39 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
jmc wrote:
Here is an interesting list of current high tech players in Ireland..

http://www.top1000.ie/industries/technology

The really interesting number is revenue per employee.

You have to go down to number 12 before you find Intel, who actual do something substantive in Ireland. Their revenue per employee is around $500K... which is not bad. Any company whose Irish operation has a revenue per employee much above that is a tax scam operation. Which is almost all of them.

Even back in the early 90s when I used to know some folk at Apple Ireland, they used to cite $1m revenue per employee.



Bah, that's nothing. :D
Ardagh Glass Sales
31st Dec 14 Source: CRO

€459.5 million turnover
€27.9 million profit
2 employees

With numbers like that, one has to wonder just how much useful analysis of these bare data is possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:42 pm 
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McCarthy manages his usual stunt of being both right and wrong at the same time. The Money Apple stashed in Ireland is not owed to the US Revenue because the scheme was designed to ensure that ANYBODY but the US revenue would get it. It is owed to global Revenues everywhere an iPhone is sold more like.

The 26% jump in GDP in Q1 2015 was in large part a legal redomiciling of 100s of aircraft in a Leasing Fleet to Ireland and not all Apple faffle like McCarthy wrongly said.

He is correct in pointing out that other countries are moving towards Ireland like rates of Corporation Tax but as the UK deficit is again too high in 2016, and headed for 4% rather than a forecast 2.9% precisely then their gallop downrate will be slowed by perennial cash flow anxieties in the Treasury.

I was myself talking this morning to a partner in a big 4 accountant who said a few interesting things about the week it's been.

1. The most egregious scams, in his opinion, are often designed by lawyers in Dublin and not "invariably" by big 4 to big 6 accountancy companies. Of the three multinational tax avoidance schemes in operation that he himself thought were most legally dodgy only one was down to a big four accountancy company and the other two were cooked up entirely by lawyers.
2. When I asked whether Matheson were the lawyers he grinned hugely and said absolutely nothing.
3. When I then asked 'who is next' he suggested a well known drug company who strongly considered inverting into Ireland last year and who also have a cash pile in the 10s of Billions of Dollars....and most of this cash pile is NOT in the US today. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:30 pm 
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Very interesting 2Pack.

2Pack wrote:
The 26% jump in GDP in Q1 2015 was in large part a legal redomiciling of 100s of aircraft in a Leasing Fleet to Ireland and not all Apple faffle like McCarthy wrongly said.

I have had this confirmed to me now by an appropriate source who can opine definitively (first hand). It was (almost) all Apple (part above normal GDP growth). Most aircraft leasing comes with offsetting financing, which means that it's net effect on GDP is small. Only the IP (and some IP related stuff), add to the GDP (and GNP) without offsetting financing.

There are (at least) two other very large IPs out there (maybe one is your Pharma company, which we can all guess who that long-standing Irish MNC is), what would also distort the Irish national GDP / GNP, but there have been no discussions - to date - with the State (at least on a formal basis), on whether they will "come home" to Ireland.

I would expect that these two IPs got better tax advice on the implications of showing the world that they were using the EU TP system from a "stateless" location (i.e. with no EU tax treaty). It might have given them pause for thought. They might wait for the 130 page report to come out and see how Apple gets on before doing anything else.

Apple is really screwed, and I think the liabilities are only just starting to for it.

When Apple realises how aggressive it's EU tax advice was, it is going to want to start suing some Dublin advisors.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:34 pm 
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Sorry to spoil a nice Sunday afternoon by mentioning he who should not be mentioned..
Quote:
Successive Irish governments were unaware of the tax arrangements between Apple and the Revenue Commissioners that resulted in last week’s European Commission (EC) ruling that the company must pay €13bn, plus interest estimated at €6bn.

Former taoiseach Bertie Ahern has told The Sunday Times that Revenue never made any finance minister aware of the arrangements with Apple. Ahern became finance minister in 1991, the year of Apple’s first tax ruling. He was taoiseach in 2007 when Revenue made a second ruling.


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/irela ... -c33r330mg

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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:46 pm 
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grumpy wrote:
Sorry to spoil a nice Sunday afternoon by mentioning he who should not be mentioned..
Quote:
Successive Irish governments were unaware of the tax arrangements between Apple and the Revenue Commissioners that resulted in last week’s European Commission (EC) ruling that the company must pay €13bn, plus interest estimated at €6bn.

Former taoiseach Bertie Ahern has told The Sunday Times that Revenue never made any finance minister aware of the arrangements with Apple. Ahern became finance minister in 1991, the year of Apple’s first tax ruling. He was taoiseach in 2007 when Revenue made a second ruling.


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/irela ... -c33r330mg

Wow, so official policy it to throw Revenue 'bad apples' (*snigger*) to the wolves...

I guess that provides a political way out?

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 Post subject: Re: Apple, Ireland, EU, Tax Avoidance, Margrethe Vestager, C
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:02 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
I guess that provides a political way out?


I am sure Revenue have a thick file on Bertie :o


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