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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:33 pm 
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onioneater wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
onioneater wrote:
Sorry but your post makes no sense. How can a school plan for a lease of lands not been renewed with only a months notice and no prior warning after being renewed continuously for 50 years or so? And just at the conclusion of a €12 build project? A large secondary school can't just up sticks and move to a brand new site down the road.


You can't run something for the long term when you depend on a lease that you don't actually have, or that may not be renewed each year. The BoM would have to be mad to run things on that basis, and especially to plan an expansion like that.


A large percentage of secondary schools in Ireland are run on the basis of leasing grounds, there is no other choice as schools were typically originally built by religious or on religious organisation grounds. Secondary schools are large affairs with sports halls, science labs, libraries, dressing rooms etc. and it is just not practical from a financial or many other viewpoints to move to new sites to avoid the issue of operating on leased grounds. And in the local area other schools such as Monkstown CBC and Oatlands have lost some of the lands they were using to sales by the land owners for development. But it is the scale and potential impact of the proposed land sale at Clonkeen that is crazy.

Mantissa wrote:

Anyway, all this talk of other schools is not really relevant and distracts from the issue at hand, the interesting governance choices in your school.

By the way the members of the BoM are apparently taking their high court challenges as individuals. Who is paying their legal fees so? I wouldn’t like to be them if I lost and was personally on the hook for that so is the BoM is covering the legal costs?


Here are some relevant facts to put you more in the picture (you are loosely bandying around phrases like "interesting governance choices" without being in possession of much of the background to the situation at Clonkeen):
*All 7 members of the BOM as of June 2017 took the legal case to assert the rights of the school after legal advice and after attempts to negotiate were refused by the Christian Brothers who presented the sale as a fait accompli.
* This is despite the fast that 4 of the Board members were actually ERST appointees! They could see how the acquiescence of ERST to the proposed sale was hugely unfair and damaging, although ERST were supposed to be school patrons.
* I understand that the board members had to take the case as 7 individuals for technical legal reasons.

I am not member of the BOM or involved in the litigation so you will have to ask them who is paying for the case, although I understand that the entire school community including past pupils are rallying strongly behind the seven taking the case.

But to understand the fierce motivation of the litigants and the school here is an eye-opener for you about the case:

Several years ago a group of people representing organisations for children with learning difficulties/disabilities of different sorts went around several second level schools in the area asking if they would consider building a specialist learning unit for their children. Many schools did not even give them a hearing (trying getting a unit for disabled children built in a SCD private school!) . However the then board of Clonkeen College said yes they would build such a unit as part of their overall building plans. A Moderate and General Learning Disabilities unit was built and opened at the school in 2014 and has been highly successful. The unit was deliberately built at the back of the school looking out on the open land behind as providing an oasis of calm is helpful for these children. Outdoor hard court facilities were built for the unit in the latest school extension work completed in summer 2017. The pupils in the GLD unit mix with the rest of the pupils in the school and this integration is helpful to all pupils, both to the able and those with disabilities, in educating in inclusiveness and the values and self-worth that this brings to all.

A shocking discovery for the school was that in the map provided in May 2017 by the Christian Brothers to mark the area to be sold the map did not show the GLD unit that had been built in 2013/14 and the line on the map went partly through where the GLD unit now stands and includes most of the GLD hard courts in the area to be sold! Even if the GLD unit is retained in a sale the plan outlined by the Christian Brothers for the 3 acre area left with the school is to build a full size all weather pitch to accommodate all of the schools many teams. The school has looked at the potential impact of this by actually carefully mapping the area where such a pitch would have to be built (something the CB's obviously didn't do). To build such a pitch on the land left with the school would mean that the boundary of the all weather pitch (a boundary requiring high fencing and nets for hurling activity) would have to be right up to the windows of the GLD unit in order to fit into the retained area. This would totally defeat the design idea of creating an oasis of calm for the GLD unit as such an all-weather facility would be full of noisy activity from morning to evening right outside the windows of the GLD unit.

Well I can tell you that everyone in the school is very angry at the potential impact of the proposed sale on the GLD unit and that is one of the reasons why the sale is being opposed on the grounds of justice and doing what is right regardless of the cost of taking the case. The school has only one chance to avoid this highly damaging sale and the time is now, and by taking a legal case to assert legal rights. Future generations won't thank us if nothing was done now to stop this madness.


CBC Monkstown never really lost lands.

Up to the 1940s the school was in Dún Laoghaire (Eblana Avenue) and had some playing fields up at Sallynoggin (which now form a part of a lot of the corporation housing scheme).

The Brothers were desperate to land a marquee spot with adjoining pitches because they wanted to be competing with the Blackrock's of the world for middle class kids (that's why its CBC and not CBS). Up until then the Brothers had mostly operated in built up locations with playing fields for the GAA away to the side. It was only a few years later when the Brothers saw the success of this and the growing suburbs that they became more generally enamored with this model and hence why Oatlands, Colaiste Eoin, Clonkeen ect were developed in the '60s.

Monkstown's grounds were owned by the DeVesci and Longford Estate but these were to be handed over to DL Council for building of a park. But nothing happened (local politics) and the restriction was opened up to more general State uses like a hospital (it was shortlisted to be used for a TB Hospital before the CBs got it, school, museum ect. The Superior of the Dún Laoghaire school got in the ear of the Cathaoirleach proposing to buy it. This faced plenty of local objections again. Monkstown was an remains a very Protestant area, the property had been previously used for the Dublin version of Crufts so that should tell you all you need to know about the locals. I doubt they were too keen on rag tag Brothers coming in taking their fields of leisure away for a song, even if they were rugby playing ones. The Brothers though got the property - allegedly by one vote with an opposing councilor gone to the toilet. As consideration the Brothers handed over their lands at Sallynoggin to the Council and those were built on as local authority houses.

Part of the lands were used to build a few houses (the ones on Carrickbrennan Road now bordering CBC) but the rest went to CBC. But the crucial thing was that the restrictive covenant on the land remained and remains to this day. The Brothers tried to sell part of the lands (the awful pitch to the back) in 2004 but couldn't without that restriction being lifted.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/christian-brothers-selling-off-school-land-to-raise-funds-26011085.html

Whilst helpful for the school back then, the restriction on the lands caused incredible hassle when the ERST was formed and the school were attempting to rebuild the place. It held the project up for several years.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Peterpanican thanks for the detailed note on CBC. I thought that had lost some lands to development in the last 20 years but they seem to have luckily escaped from what you're saying.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:40 pm 
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TheJackal wrote:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/planning-approved-for-st-anne-s-park-housing-development-1.3452709

Planning approved for St Anne’s Park housing development


This is bad news for any school or public lands in general such as public parks. Why are Bord Pleanala taking this radical decision to allow a huge development in St Annes Park in the face of strong local opposition, environmental issues and the opposition of influential non-aligned public figures such as the Dublin City Manager? Bizarre planning decisions taken in the past in the era a of local councillors making planning decisions on large developments were alleged to have been a sign of possible corruption. Maybe its the pressure of the housing crisis causing bad short-term planning decisions to be made but these will cause damage and loss in the long term.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:49 pm 
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onioneater wrote:
TheJackal wrote:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/planning-approved-for-st-anne-s-park-housing-development-1.3452709

Planning approved for St Anne’s Park housing development


This is bad news for any school or public lands in general such as public parks. Why are Bord Pleanala taking this radical decision to allow a huge development in St Annes Park in the face of strong local opposition, environmental issues and the opposition of influential non-aligned public figures such as the Dublin City Manager? Bizarre planning decisions taken in the past, in the era of local councillors making planning decisions on large developments, were alleged to have been a sign of possible corruption. Maybe its the pressure of the housing crisis that is causing bad short-term planning decisions to be made but these will cause damage and loss in the long term.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:23 am 
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Its good news for thousands of people who need a place to live. That's a long term win.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:24 am 
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taipeir wrote:
Its good news for thousands of people who need a place to live. That's a long term win.

But ... der turk ur furtball.

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"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future" – Niels Bohr


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:53 am 
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taipeir wrote:
Its good news for thousands of people who need a place to live. That's a long term win.


There are plenty of more appropriate sites for 8 storey apartment blocks than built on existing pitch and public park amenities away from the city centre. It takes a special lack of empathy and appreciation of the big picture to not understand this.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:03 pm 
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However these are not public lands.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:27 pm 
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We are in the midst of a horrific housing crisis that is having a massively negative impact on families and individuals across Ireland. Is there any point at which South Dublin nimbyism will ever give way to basic morality and Christian values?


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Luan wrote:
However these are not public lands.


That's true but these lands were fully part of St Anne Park until the 1950's when they were swapped for use as a playing field amenity for the adjacent school. A fence only went up in 2001 and I don't think a future building development was what the council had in mind when they made the land swap in the 1950's. The public vs private delineation wasn't explained very well either to the park wildlife like the visiting Brent geese.

Also the granting of planning of this sort of development is hardly in line with Z15 zoning - "institutional and community" use. It's all about the money, forget right and wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Negative Covenant wrote:
We are in the midst of a horrific housing crisis that is having a massively negative impact on families and individuals across Ireland. Is there any point at which South Dublin nimbyism will ever give way to basic morality and Christian values?


We are actually discussing a similar North Dublin issue in recent posts - St Annes/Raheny. There is also sufficient Z1 zoned land in Dublin to build 120,000 units. I am quite happy for developers to build on the multiple sites available around me in South Dublin that are Z1 zoned rather than on pitches and parks. But do carry on.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:57 pm 
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Negative Covenant wrote:
We are in the midst of a horrific housing crisis that is having a massively negative impact on families and individuals across Ireland. Is there any point at which South Dublin nimbyism will ever give way to basic morality and Christian values?


er is building expensive houses in SOCODU going to solve the housing crisis :x


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:50 pm 
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cyrusir wrote:
Negative Covenant wrote:
We are in the midst of a horrific housing crisis that is having a massively negative impact on families and individuals across Ireland. Is there any point at which South Dublin nimbyism will ever give way to basic morality and Christian values?


er is building expensive houses in SOCODU going to solve the housing crisis :x


It is unlikely that the houses and apartments in St Annes would be cheap to be honest.

Anyways - I live next to the park. Those pitches aren't as such public land. There is enough pitches in the park to accommodate whatever might get lost.
I don't even think that the apartments would be too intrusive, looking at the plans.

However, I am royally pissed off by the fact that the Vincentians get a multi-million payout and essentially screw the neighbours.
The traffic on the junction of Howth Road and Sybil hill Road is already bad enough. Public transport is strained as well, and I see no solutions for any of that.

There's plenty of space further north though which wouldn't be building in the middle of the park.

Housing density in most of Raheny and Clontarf is still quite low given it is all old terraces with generally huge back gardens.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:59 am 
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http://www.thejournal.ie/clonkeen-colle ... 3-May2018/

Would appear the tone of this thread is akin to what the judge is having to put up with.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian Brothers in disgraceful sale of school pitches
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:23 am 
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What are the legal implications of the Board of Managemnt being joined as Co-plaintiff? Does this mean the school rather than the individuals who took the case will be paying the legal bill?


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