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'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
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Author:  JimmyTheFish [ Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

johnp002 wrote:
Government acting in a way such as to provide large benefits to a few with the cost widely dispersed across the population should surprise no-one.


Actually govt policy in relation to housing helps a lot of people far more than "a few" most of them who live in Dublin and are rather rich by virtue of chance and how the government taxes the bejaysus of any other assets other than property.

There are people in Foxrock and other less expensive but that became fashionable areas like Portmarnock where a modest investment in the 1970s made people millionaires many times over by the tax relief given to housing.

If these people has put a fraction of the money into shares they would have been rogered by the tax man in relation to tax esp the CGT. Take a look at the exemptions on CGT on shares.

Sell a house that you bought for 15k for 1.5 million and pay no CGT. Do the same to shares and see how much the taxman gets.

The problem that a lot of people who moan and bitch about "vulture funds" live in very smart and expensive dwellings and have paid no additional tax on theses assets compared to those how haven't the same assets. These were the cnuts who believed FFs 1977 Manifesto and voted for jam tomorrow and facilitated the removal of household rates.

You have the same oul ones on the radio bitching why their children can't live around the corner from them and why those who have no houses should pay for their nursing home fees.

These homeowners were around in the 1990s to benefit from the removal of 3rd level fees and now want others to leave them in their expensive houses while expecting that the working population should pay for their keep in a nursing home.

Author:  GameBlame [ Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

Is there any mathematician on here who can work out how many posts on average it takes for Sinn Fein being blamed for something. Like you're only ever 10 feet from a rat or something. It's gas actually, all these people who think Ireland "needs new thinking", but they return to default "Sinn Blaming" instinctively no matter what.

Author:  mr_anderson [ Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

GameBlame wrote:
Is there any mathematician on here who can work out how many posts on average it takes for Sinn Fein being blamed for something. Like you're only ever 10 feet from a rat or something. It's gas actually, all these people who think Ireland "needs new thinking", but they return to default "Sinn Blaming" instinctively no matter what.



Where has anyone mentioned sinn fein ?

Author:  johnp002 [ Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

JimmyTheFish wrote:
johnp002 wrote:
Government acting in a way such as to provide large benefits to a few with the cost widely dispersed across the population should surprise no-one.


Actually govt policy in relation to housing helps a lot of people far more than "a few" most of them who live in Dublin and are rather rich by virtue of chance and how the government taxes the bejaysus of any other assets other than property.

...


Certainly there are lots of net beneficiaries of the policies enacted by government but I don't think any government really has a direct agenda to propagate advantage in a small section of the population. It seems far more likely that politicians just enact policies that are either in their own personal interest or are in the interest of lobbyists who contribute to them through various means. Where the interests of politicians and lobbyists intersect with the interests of a demographic of urban property owners those property owners will be advantaged but this is purely coincidental.
Any interaction with authority that I have had supports the view that the actions taken by government are a chaotic set of reactions to self-interest and expediency rather than steps to advance a coherent master plan of class warfare.

Author:  slasher [ Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

johnp002 wrote:

Certainly there are lots of net beneficiaries of the policies enacted by government but I don't think any government really has a direct agenda to propagate advantage in a small section of the population. It seems far more likely that politicians just enact policies that are either in their own personal interest or are in the interest of lobbyists who contribute to them through various means. Where the interests of politicians and lobbyists intersect with the interests of a demographic of urban property owners those property owners will be advantaged but this is purely coincidental.
Any interaction with authority that I have had supports the view that the actions taken by government are a chaotic set of reactions to self-interest and expediency rather than steps to advance a coherent master plan of class warfare.



look at the [visceral] reaction to DoF proposal to end the CGT exemption for PPRs... even on fora with young "leftish" people [thejournal/reddit] it was met with a negative reaction. The IT were sneaky the way they substituted "family home" for PPR but they probably ddn't have to. Did the AAA/SF/socDems/Labour row in behind the proposal? did they fuck

Similarly for the proposal to encourage people in nursing homes [paid for by the state] to rent out their empty homes "barbaric"

somewhat off topic but Stephen Collins has put his head above the parapet in the Irish Times today; there's no conspiracy for a cabal- old people vote and they are selfish

Quote:
Age discrimination in taxation is a ticking time bomb

Politicians may face a youth backlash if system’s unfairness is not addressed
One of the striking things about taking an airport coach from anywhere in the country to Dublin Airport is the number of retired people travelling free to board an aircraft to their holiday destination.

In fact, if you listen to the conversations of some of those using the service from more affluent destinations, it will become apparent they are on their way to holiday homes in France, Spain or Italy.

Yet when the debate about what should be in next year’s budget gets into full swing after the Dáil returns next month, the airport coach users will be classed as among “the most vulnerable in society” as the battle for scarce resources gets under way in earnest.


Author:  mr_anderson [ Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

johnp002 wrote:

Certainly there are lots of net beneficiaries of the policies enacted by government but I don't think any government really has a direct agenda to propagate advantage in a small section of the population. It seems far more likely that politicians just enact policies that are either in their own personal interest or are in the interest of lobbyists who contribute to them through various means. Where the interests of politicians and lobbyists intersect with the interests of a demographic of urban property owners those property owners will be advantaged but this is purely coincidental.
Any interaction with authority that I have had supports the view that the actions taken by government are a chaotic set of reactions to self-interest and expediency rather than steps to advance a coherent master plan of class warfare.



My own guess is that the government is doing everything it can to increase property prices.
This has a number of 'benefits' for them.

1. It improves the bank balance sheets, as it lifts bad mortgages out of negative equity.
This is good when you're selling AIB.

2. Lifting people out of negative equity is good for chasing votes.

3. Higher prices lead to increased sales revenue from NAMA.

4. A lot of politicians are landlords. The self-interest gene, as you mentioned.

There are a lot of 'winners' in higher prices.

Author:  slasher [ Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

mr_anderson wrote:
johnp002 wrote:

Certainly there are lots of net beneficiaries of the policies enacted by government but I don't think any government really has a direct agenda to propagate advantage in a small section of the population. It seems far more likely that politicians just enact policies that are either in their own personal interest or are in the interest of lobbyists who contribute to them through various means. Where the interests of politicians and lobbyists intersect with the interests of a demographic of urban property owners those property owners will be advantaged but this is purely coincidental.
Any interaction with authority that I have had supports the view that the actions taken by government are a chaotic set of reactions to self-interest and expediency rather than steps to advance a coherent master plan of class warfare.



My own guess is that the government is doing everything it can to increase property prices.
This has a number of 'benefits' for them.

1. It improves the bank balance sheets, as it lifts bad mortgages out of negative equity.
This is good when you're selling AIB.

2. Lifting people out of negative equity is good for chasing votes.

3. Higher prices lead to increased sales revenue from NAMA.

4. A lot of politicians are landlords. The self-interest gene, as you mentioned.

There are a lot of 'winners' in higher prices.


and people spend more in the broader economy when they have equity in their property (sorry renters) though it's obviously unsustainable long term

Author:  GameBlame [ Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
Is there any mathematician on here who can work out how many posts on average it takes for Sinn Fein being blamed for something. Like you're only ever 10 feet from a rat or something. It's gas actually, all these people who think Ireland "needs new thinking", but they return to default "Sinn Blaming" instinctively no matter what.



Where has anyone mentioned sinn fein ?


A lengthy post about Sinn Fein and holiday homes appeared and disappeared. Or else I imagined it.

Author:  ps200306 [ Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

GameBlame wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
Is there any mathematician on here who can work out how many posts on average it takes for Sinn Fein being blamed for something. Like you're only ever 10 feet from a rat or something. It's gas actually, all these people who think Ireland "needs new thinking", but they return to default "Sinn Blaming" instinctively no matter what.

Where has anyone mentioned sinn fein ?

A lengthy post about Sinn Fein and holiday homes appeared and disappeared. Or else I imagined it.

There you go then. It takes 18 posts before someone either blames Sinn Féin for something or someone imagines they did. :wink:

Btw, what's "new" about SF's thinking? Das Kapital is 150 years old this year.

Author:  Skippy 3 [ Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

Coles2 wrote:
Planning and Development (Amendment) (No.2) Bill 2017
The 'don't use it, don't lose it' bill. It allows 10-12 year old planning permissions to be extended further with no pressure on the land owner or developer to actually build.


Take the counterfactual. That all boom-era planning permissions had been allowed to lapse after the normal 5 years.

This would mean developers being obliged to re-apply for the same developments that were granted permission in 2007 but never built. This would add a lot of time and expense to the process and would be seized on as more evidence of the gubbermint getting in the way of houses being built, etc, etc.

Author:  Luan [ Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

Receivers for the most part renewed planning permissions - any permission pre Aug 2007 has now expired.

For a small number of sites with post 2007 permission this legislation will negate the need to apply for new planning.

But hey the land hoarding line makes for a better story.

Author:  mr_anderson [ Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

Is the re-application a foregone conclusion (bar the time & expense) ?

Author:  GameBlame [ Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

ps200306 wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
Is there any mathematician on here who can work out how many posts on average it takes for Sinn Fein being blamed for something. Like you're only ever 10 feet from a rat or something. It's gas actually, all these people who think Ireland "needs new thinking", but they return to default "Sinn Blaming" instinctively no matter what.

Where has anyone mentioned sinn fein ?

A lengthy post about Sinn Fein and holiday homes appeared and disappeared. Or else I imagined it.

There you go then. It takes 18 posts before someone either blames Sinn Féin for something or someone imagines they did. :wink:

Btw, what's "new" about SF's thinking? Das Kapital is 150 years old this year.


Ah here. What I mean as not "new" is some people being so used to instinctively blaming Sinn Fein that they get blamed for solar eclipses, STD outbreaks, queues on the M50 etc. You'd have to have seen the original post maybe.

Author:  GameBlame [ Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

Skippy 3 wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
Planning and Development (Amendment) (No.2) Bill 2017
The 'don't use it, don't lose it' bill. It allows 10-12 year old planning permissions to be extended further with no pressure on the land owner or developer to actually build.


Take the counterfactual. That all boom-era planning permissions had been allowed to lapse after the normal 5 years.

This would mean developers being obliged to re-apply for the same developments that were granted permission in 2007 but never built. This would add a lot of time and expense to the process and would be seized on as more evidence of the gubbermint getting in the way of houses being built, etc, etc.


But to counter your counter factual, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. These "developers" aren't developing their extant renewed planning. So it's a policy failure. And it happens to help developers hoard and keep sites in the deep freeze

Author:  Luan [ Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis

mr_anderson wrote:
Is the re-application a foregone conclusion (bar the time & expense) ?

Assuming the land has not been rezoned, you will always get something. However the not in my backyard brigade will be out in force. A trip to ABP is to be expected.

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