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 Post subject: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:20 am 
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Two stories I've come across today.

Quote:
Developer denies paying local politician €80,000 to have land rezoned
Dungarvan councillor’s ex-wife tells corruption trial of sudden improvement in family finances after meeting with Michael Ryan

The trial opened at Waterford Circuit Court yesterday of property developer Michael Ryan (60), of The Sweepstakes, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4 and Al Eile Stud, Dungarvan, Co Waterford, who denies three charges that he made corrupt payments totalling €80,000 to a politician.
The first day of the trial featured evidence from Jenny Forsey, former wife of Fred Forsey, a local politician alleged to have received €80,000 in corrupt payments from the developer.
She recalled how their finances “weren’t good” in the summer of 2006 but that, by the end of that August, they went on a family holiday to Rome and her then husband was buying new furniture and carpets.

...


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/develope ... -1.1450760

Quote:
Five go on trial for receiving corrupt rezoning payments

Frank Dunlop to say James Kennedy retained him in 1991 to secure land rezoning

Five men have gone on trial at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court on charges of giving or receiving corrupt payments in relation to the rezoning of land in south Co Dublin.
Lawyers for the Director of Public Prosecutions made opening submissions this morning before Judge Mary Ellen Ring. The hearing of witness evidence was due to start later in the day.
The accused include three former councillors and a sitting councillor, accused of receiving payment for voting to rezone lands at Jackson Way in Carrickmines.



http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-an ... -1.1452832

Just a question on people's thoughts on this sort bolloxology that has been common place in Ireland. Has enough been done in the last few years to deter this sort of carry on or are we just one mini economic recovery away from a return to the good old days?

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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:30 am 
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Dubhgeannain wrote:
Just a question on people's thoughts on this sort bolloxology that has been common place in Ireland. Has enough been done in the last few years to deter this sort of carry on or are we just one mini economic recovery away from a return to the good old days?


I'm unconvinced that Ireland is exceptional in this regard. And no, it is always going to be with us to some degree unfortunately because politics everywhere attracts a particular type of chancer. And business attracts a complementary type.


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:38 am 
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If you had a law that saw those in public office get 5 years for accepting any sort of bribe, we might see this stuff curtailed. A few sting operations might help too. But we're not exactly into proactive policing in Ireland, and politicians have proven rather slow to try to deter corrupt politicians.


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:45 am 
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Barney Gumble wrote:
If you had a law that saw those in public office get 5 years for accepting any sort of bribe, we might see this stuff curtailed. A few sting operations might help too. But we're not exactly into proactive policing in Ireland, and politicians have proven rather slow to try to deter corrupt politicians.



Also, offering a bribe should be a criminal offence.


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:59 am 
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it's amazing the amount of people who think that ireland is an unique cesspit of corruption and gombeenism .... this type of behaviour is as old as civilisation and a part of just about every society.

using dodgy methods to increase wealth is no different to cattle rustling of day of old ...


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:06 pm 
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Tfp2000 wrote:
it's amazing the amount of people who think that ireland is an unique cesspit of corruption and gombeenism .... this type of behaviour is as old as civilisation and a part of just about every society.

using dodgy methods to increase wealth is no different to cattle rustling of day of old ...


Yes but in Ireland it is culturally embedded, getting money through any means is the goal (perhaps excluding violence) but that's it. A country can have laws to the dozen its the cultural imperative to apply these laws that we lack, we don't see the harm in it, even after it has financially destroyed our country, we lack leadership skills everyone wants to be liked, the consequences of tough decisions or contrarian types is the cultural equivalent of Siberia

I think that's what sets us apart from responsible and financially mature cultures, they value a strong leader, they reward doing the right thing rather than the populist thing


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:22 pm 
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mr_anderson wrote:
Barney Gumble wrote:
If you had a law that saw those in public office get 5 years for accepting any sort of bribe, we might see this stuff curtailed. A few sting operations might help too. But we're not exactly into proactive policing in Ireland, and politicians have proven rather slow to try to deter corrupt politicians.


Also, offering a bribe should be a criminal offence.


Is it not already?

There's a good case for making offering certain bribes legal but accepting them illegal.

http://finmin.nic.in/WorkingPaper/Act_G ... _Legal.pdf

(pdf)

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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:59 pm 
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The bizarre thing is that Fred Forsey was a TOWN councillor and so couldn't make changes to the planning in this case. Who did impose the changes? And why don't the media even ask the question?


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:30 pm 
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slasher wrote:
The bizarre thing is that Fred Forsey was a TOWN councillor and so couldn't make changes to the planning in this case. Who did impose the changes? And why don't the media even ask the question?




I'm drawing a blank online but I have a vague recollection of a Dungarvan corruption case in the last few years where councillors took money to reduce the speed limit in an area - supposedly for 'safety' reasons, but having the side effect of making the area eligible for rezoning. Perhaps this is what happened?


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:42 pm 
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So how do they actually prove that the money was for a specific purpose? Surely in a free society, I can give my money to whomever I want?


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:32 pm 
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Grizzly Man wrote:
slasher wrote:
The bizarre thing is that Fred Forsey was a TOWN councillor and so couldn't make changes to the planning in this case. Who did impose the changes? And why don't the media even ask the question?




I'm drawing a blank online but I have a vague recollection of a Dungarvan corruption case in the last few years where councillors took money to reduce the speed limit in an area - supposedly for 'safety' reasons, but having the side effect of making the area eligible for rezoning. Perhaps this is what happened?


I thought that was a town clerk or county official. The defendant anyway, not sure of the particulars

Another woman scorned IIRC

edit

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pl ... 59473.html


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:33 pm 
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slasher wrote:
The bizarre thing is that Fred Forsey was a TOWN councillor and so couldn't make changes to the planning in this case. Who did impose the changes? And why don't the media even ask the question?


Councillors seem to back-to-back each other on support for deals. So I want a deal to go through but don't want to be seen to Support it as my ward doesn't like it. I get someone (or maybe two) to support it allowing me to vote the way my ward would want me to. Presumably the favour is called-in in reverse next time out.


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:45 am 
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Bjorn again wrote:
Yes but in Ireland it is culturally embedded, getting money through any means is the goal

Not unique in the slightest though.


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:07 pm 
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http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/co ... 07659.html

well he got off anyhow.

I don't think Jury trials work in Ireland. They just won't send people to jail(general comment as opposed to comment specific to this case)


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 Post subject: Re: The Land that was
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:15 pm 
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dipole wrote:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/millionaire-developer-michael-ryan-found-not-guilty-of-making-corrupt-payments-to-fine-gael-councillor-29407659.html

well he got off anyhow.

I don't think Jury trials work in Ireland. They just won't send people to jail(general comment as opposed to comment specific to this case)


Let's get rid of jury trials so, aye?

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