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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:15 am 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 5474
In as few words as possible....

1. It's not doctors enabling the State, it's the State enabling doctors.
2. The objective is to treat sick people.
3. Notwithstanding your rights, in practical terms why do you care what happens to your corpse?
4. Marital rape comparisons are nonsense because marital status has no bearing on consent.

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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:28 am 
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Real Estate Developer

Joined: Aug 19, 2011
Posts: 974
@Eschatologist
The treatment by doctors of those citizens in need is not the issue. Everybody wants sick people to get treatment.
And it's not about one individuals opinion, it's about all citizens rights, now and in perpetuity.
A right given up to the state is never given back.
Essentially you are opening a Pandora's box for further erosion of your rights.


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:44 am 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: May 18, 2007
Posts: 6334
Location: On the Road
Eschatologist wrote:
In as few words as possible....

1. It's not doctors enabling the State, it's the State enabling doctors.
2. The objective is to treat sick people.
3. Notwithstanding your rights, in practical terms why do you care what happens to your corpse?
4. Marital rape comparisons are nonsense because marital status has no bearing on consent.


Marital status did have a bearing on consent in the past whereby consent was implied to have been provided by both parties by virtue of the existences of a marriage contract......and marital rape did not exist as a result ie because of the implied consent contained therein. This was subsequently deemed to be unethical and implied consent is now never accepted as a defence.

Likewise now the current trend is toward requirements for explicit consent in the form of positive verbalisation or similar being provided prior consent being affirmed. I assume from your previous posts that this is a trend of which you would be supportive.....and I'm curious why you would oppose the same principle applying in this instance.

There's is a perfectly good system in operation which requires people to provide formal consent should anyine wish to access their organs. Why change it ? Or maybe a btter question is why would formal consent have been required to date?

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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:00 am 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Oct 19, 2010
Posts: 2680
Location: Dublin SE
I’m shocked at the faux civil liberties and casting the state as some bogie man who wants to steal your organs to satisfy its nefarious lust for your blood.

This is about taking the organs of an already dead person and giving those organs to a living person who will die without it.

It’s a myth to think that carrying a donor card allows you to donate you organs but not caring one means they won’t be donated. Every single suitable patient that could donate organs is put up as a candidate already. What happenes is that the family are asked what were the wishes of the patient and permission is sought from the family. It’s a difficult time to ask so the function of a donor card is to have that conversation earlier to make the decision easier for the family at the time.

This measure of opt in changes absolutely nothing about that. It is not proposing to strip away the rights of anyone but it is trying to make the conversation with the family easier as it is presumed that every has effectively got a donor card.

To suggest otherwise and put up comparisons with state sponsored murder of political prisoners or marital rape is disingenuous at best and at worst it risks a dying person not getting a heart, kidney or liver that will save their life.

I do hope we have an opt out system, then anyone who doesn’t want their organs donated can let their NOK know and that’s that.

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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:10 am 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Oct 19, 2010
Posts: 2680
Location: Dublin SE
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
There's is a perfectly good system in operation which requires people to provide formal consent should anyine wish to access their organs. Why change it ? Or maybe a btter question is why would formal consent have been required to date?

See my answer above.
There is no system in place to give legal consent. Signing a donor card has no legal standing.

The legal position currently is that a dead person has no rights in law, a dead person has no property rights including the right to their own organs. Also the NOK have no legal rights to the body at all and have no legal right to say what happens any part of it. Legally speaking a dead body and it’s organs including a brain dead body on a life support machine is already the property of the state.

This is the current legal situation.

In practice however, the NOK are asked their wishes and for information about the wishes of the previously alive person. It would require exceptional circumstances for those whishes not to be adhered to.

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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:30 am 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: May 18, 2007
Posts: 6334
Location: On the Road
Terra Incognita wrote:
I’m shocked at the faux civil liberties and casting the state as some bogie man who wants to steal your organs to satisfy its nefarious lust for your blood.

This is about taking the organs of an already dead person and giving those organs to a living person who will die without it.

It’s a myth to think that carrying a donor card allows you to donate you organs but not caring one means they won’t be donated. Every single suitable patient that could donate organs is put up as a candidate already. What happenes is that the family are asked what were the wishes of the patient and permission is sought from the family. It’s a difficult time to ask so the function of a donor card is to have that conversation earlier to make the decision easier for the family at the time.

This measure of opt in changes absolutely.


Spare me the faux outrage.

Affording a health service that has killed numerous women over the past few years through negligent incompetence while subsequently seeking to cover their tracks, the right of unfettered access to peoples organs on the basis of seeking to protect doctors from 'difficult conversations' isn't something I'm in favour of.

You'll note that this whole issue arose due to the fact that they were taking people's organ without having informed their next of kin.

The provision of explicit Consent, either provided by the deceased prior to death or by their family post facto, is a perfectly reasonable requirement before extraction of anything from somebody's body. And if that's not the case currently then manybe we should be moving in that direction.

My body my choice and all that....

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"It is difficult to be certain about anything except what you have seen with your own eyes, and consciously or unconsciously everyone writes as a partisan.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:30 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: May 18, 2007
Posts: 6334
Location: On the Road
Eschatologist wrote:
In as few words as possible....

3. Notwithstanding your rights, in practical terms why do you care what happens to your corpse?t.


Strange question.

Why wouldn't you care what happens to your body or indeed the body of someone you love?

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"It is difficult to be certain about anything except what you have seen with your own eyes, and consciously or unconsciously everyone writes as a partisan.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:57 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 5474
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
In as few words as possible....

3. Notwithstanding your rights, in practical terms why do you care what happens to your corpse?t.


Strange question.

Why wouldn't you care what happens to your body or indeed the body of someone you love?

It's just meat. I'd probably draw the line at necrophilia using the corpses of my children, but that's about it. For my own body anything goes.

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"It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favour"
Tyrion Lannister


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:44 pm 
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Real Estate Developer

Joined: Aug 19, 2011
Posts: 974
@Eschatologist
At least you have some standards, right?
:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:02 pm 
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IMF'd

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31893
Location: Tullamore
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Spare me the faux outrage.

:lol: :lol:
Wait, I'm out of breath, is there a doctor in the house?
:lol:

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