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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:16 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

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Eschatologist wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
In as few words as possible....

3. Notwithstanding your rights, in practical terms why do you care what happens to your corpse?t.


Strange question.

Why wouldn't you care what happens to your body or indeed the body of someone you love?

It's just meat. I'd probably draw the line at necrophilia using the corpses of my children, but that's about it. For my own body anything goes.


If it's just meat why would you object to any form of necrophilia?

It sounds like you'd require Jimmy Saville to have obtained a form of consent prior to him entering the mortuary.....which based on your above statement likening the dead to 'meat' would be both inconsistent and hypocritical on your part.

You sure this isn't just you raising the standard detached pseudo-intellectual 'progressive goes here' banner for the benefit of like minded sentient slabs of meat?

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― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:27 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 5474
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
If it's just meat why would you object to any form of necrophilia?

Leaving aside the fact that we're now discussing necrophilia on a thread about organ donation, I'm not saying necrophilia is right, I'm just saying I don't care about what happens to my corpse, including wrong things, and I'm prepared to defend my not giving a shit to extreme levels in the same way that you're prepared to defend your giving a shit to extreme levels, including the rather perverse case where you do care but can't be bothered to opt out.

Is this a libertarian thing? It's not rooted in any mainstream religion as far as I know.

Will you be opting out?

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"It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favour"
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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:41 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

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Posts: 6334
Location: On the Road
Eschatologist wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
If it's just meat why would you object to any form of necrophilia?

Leaving aside the fact that we're now discussing necrophilia on a thread about organ donation, I'm not saying necrophilia is right, I'm just saying I don't care about what happens to my corpse, including wrong things, and I'm prepared to defend my not giving a shit to extreme levels in the same way that you're prepared to defend your giving a shit to extreme levels, including the rather perverse case where you do care but can't be bothered to opt out.

Is this a libertarian thing? It's not rooted in any mainstream religion as far as I know.

Will you be opting out?


I've suggested that the ethical approach would be for people to opt in rather than be required to opt out.

I've also suggested that this would be consistent with current legal trends around the principle of consent generally.

I'm at a loss as to why you or anyone else would oppose such a stance.....or at least I was up to the point you introduced the meat/necrophilia aspects.

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"It is difficult to be certain about anything except what you have seen with your own eyes, and consciously or unconsciously everyone writes as a partisan.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:08 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 5474
You still haven't answered my question. Will you be opting out?

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"It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favour"
Tyrion Lannister


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:21 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 2183
Terra Incognita wrote:
Legally speaking a dead body and it’s organs including a brain dead body on a life support machine is already the property of the state.


I don't think that's accurate.

Property implies the state has the right to do with your body what it pleases.

There are a few situations (criminal investigations, infectious disease) where the state can take ownership of your body. But otherwise your family has the right to take posession of it for disposal in a set of highly restricted ways.


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:57 pm 
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First Time Buyer

Joined: Jul 24, 2018
Posts: 99
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
propertyspire wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
I'm curious as to why anyone would be in favour of the State assigning itself de facto property rights over constituent parts of their own body.

People already donate organs if they make a personal choice to do so. Whats the issue with continuing the current system ie where people are required to have opted in?

Indeed, given the current ongoing public debate around the definition of consent as applied to cases of alleged rape or sexual assault, to include the non-acceptance of any form of 'implied consent' as a defence, including between married couples, it would seem potentially problematic for the State to be seeking to legislate in the opposite direction on this issue i.e. what would this be if not a form of 'implied consent'?


I guess you can out out then. Problem solved.


I guess married women should also be required to explicitly opt out of unwanted sex with their husband post-marriage lest the assumption of their having consented be implied by virtue of the existence of a marriage contract?

Weak argument from the permanently outraged. Unwanted sex is called rape, it's not an opt in or out situation is it.


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:14 am 
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Planning Tribunal Attendee

Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Posts: 1041
I am very uncomfortable with being expected to opt out of this. Opt in appears to me to be the only ethical way to approach organ donation.

I agree with the analogy to marital rape - consent was implied by way of the marriage contract. That was wrong and was found to be wrong. Here, consent is implied by way of what...being alive? Holding an Irish passport? Dying in an Irish hospital?

The Irish state already has form when it comes to (lack of) consent in this regard. How about when Crumlin was selling brain tissue to pharmaceutical companies?

https://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0209/5513-organs/

I am happy for my organs to be donated when I no longer need them, but I am not happy not to have ownership of them. For this reason, I intend to look into opting out.

The feeling of loss of control is very difficult for some patients. I find that this exacerbates that feeling.


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:57 am 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: May 18, 2007
Posts: 6334
Location: On the Road
propertyspire wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
propertyspire wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
I'm curious as to why anyone would be in favour of the State assigning itself de facto property rights over constituent parts of their own body.

People already donate organs if they make a personal choice to do so. Whats the issue with continuing the current system ie where people are required to have opted in?

Indeed, given the current ongoing public debate around the definition of consent as applied to cases of alleged rape or sexual assault, to include the non-acceptance of any form of 'implied consent' as a defence, including between married couples, it would seem potentially problematic for the State to be seeking to legislate in the opposite direction on this issue i.e. what would this be if not a form of 'implied consent'?


I guess you can out out then. Problem solved.


I guess married women should also be required to explicitly opt out of unwanted sex with their husband post-marriage lest the assumption of their having consented be implied by virtue of the existence of a marriage contract?

Weak argument from the permanently outraged. Unwanted sex is called rape, it's not an opt in or out situation is it.


Are you really incapable of grasping that the principle of consent may apply to more than one aspect of human endeavour/life generally?

And that, generally, our legal system aspires toward the maintenance of consistency in its application of such principles across the board?

As stated previously my position is as follows

Quote:
I've suggested that the ethical approach would be for people to opt in rather than be required to opt out.

I've also suggested that this would be consistent with current legal trends around the principle of consent generally.

I'm at a loss as to why you or anyone else would oppose such a stance


You're free to label it a position grounded in 'outrage'.

I disagree.

_________________
"It is difficult to be certain about anything except what you have seen with your own eyes, and consciously or unconsciously everyone writes as a partisan.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:19 am 
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Too Big to Fail
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Joined: Aug 21, 2009
Posts: 4532
Location: Mesopotatia
I'll tentatively give this a thumbs up.

My issue with a lot of this type of opt-out legislation is most people's ignorance of it's existence at all until it is too late. It has happened before with the likes of the Cohabitants Act. In the case of this Act too I suspect it has likely done more good than bad (without basing that on any intrinsic evidence). However, there have certainly been cases where some ex-partners who can only be described as the leeching type have done quite well out of it. People being aware of its existence may still not mean they will opt-out however as it could certainly be seen a vote of no-confidence in a relationships future by one of the partners.

Is this sort of blanket legislation covered in school? I know it certainly wasn't when I was in the system.


Back to main topic as I'm not familiar with the industry but is there a divide between Private and Public donations? Could Health Insurance providers, in the future, feasibly provide their own opt-in schemes as part of their contracts, whereby signing up to that you are then opting out of the state scheme? I'm no fan of the HSE and can almost already imagine fridges of organs going to waste and rotting due to some bureaucratic cock up.

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The real damage is done by those millions who want to 'get by'. The ordinary men who just want to be left in peace. Those who don’t want their lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with no sides and no causes. Those who won’t take measure of their own strength, for fear of antagonizing their own weakness. Those people who roll up their spirits into tiny little balls so as to be safe. Safe?! From what?
Sophie Scholl


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 Post subject: Re: All Your Organ Are Belong to Us
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:21 am 
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Nationalised

Joined: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 11790
Location: Multiverse
I've no problem with this.
When you're dead, you're dead.
Hopefully going to save a huge amount of lives.


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