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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Barney Gumble wrote:
1. Are public sector pay-levels in accordance with a) international norms and b) what we can afford?
2. Are there under-employed or redundant staff in the public sector that need to be sacked?
3. Are work practices in the public sector sufficiently geared towards getting the best value for money for the taxpayer?

I've worked in a large semi-state, and I guess I'm technically a PS worker right now. At the same time, looking at those questions objectively and based on my own experiences and what I have learned by other means, I would have to answer them as follows:

1. No
2. Yes
3. No

Not many would disagree. Primarily among managers that don't manage, and administrators who don't do anything beyond the most rudimentary of tasks, yet command inflated pay rates.

Another question (at least for those making Europe-wide comparisons) would need to address cost of living here versus cost of living abroad. Pay cuts would be more palatable if there were similar cuts in rent, cost of housing, goods etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:54 pm 
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Inis Man wrote:
Open Window wrote:
There are those that have left to find work but have returned to celebrate a close friend weddings but it is the celebration held by those that remain and what their position is in Irish society that speak volumes. I will not go into further detail but frankly the lines are drawn across the kitchen tables across the land. Clear away the knives before it is to late. Bias is not solidarity until you have rid the land those not willing to play the established game and we all know where that takes us.


Haven't a clue what you're on about here, OW - is this a quote from Nostradamus?



+ 1 :?


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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:21 pm 
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To clarify ...those who emigrated (yes yearly work visa for the pedants.. with a hope to longer term stay) had returned for the ceremony where all highly qualified people, those getting married 100% pub sector classic nurse/Gard type affair and a god batch of the extended family too. We really resemble the House of Saud model more day by day the more people tell me of the various public sector job dynasties. So little diversity in whole families it is a very dangerous game. It might be no coincidence since we have a lot more in common with north Africa than we do central Europe.

All long time friends with strong bonds. Some still had mortgages here. One regretful they ever listened to the advice of the older others, they said they where "young". I detected a sense of anger. I said "yes but what they hadn't figured was who is going to come back and save them now they have burnt their children never thinking that this might happen... no one is coming back to save them I don't they have figured this out still".

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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:49 pm 
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hairy cake wrote:
Another question (at least for those making Europe-wide comparisons) would need to address cost of living here versus cost of living abroad. Pay cuts would be more palatable if there were similar cuts in rent, cost of housing, goods etc.

Unfortunately, that is where the problem lies. If you pay by cost of living, pay rates and cost of living will remain high. Government spending is at 57% of GNP. If you look at the components of CPI that have risen in the last 2-3 years, the stand-out sectors are government charges and levies and the cost of mortgages. While both measures may be necessary, they again make it relatively more expensive to live here. Increased taxes (VAT, for example) will do the same.

The point, though, is not for salaries, benefits, tax rates, whatever, to keep pace with inflation, it is that the economy as a whole is both uncompetitive (for the sort of jobs that would employ a lot of people and in terms of government imposed costs on businesses (which feed into general prices)) and bust (in that the state is spending way more than it can hope to earn). That lower standard of living that bustness implies? It applies to everyone.

It would be wonderful if this was not so, but I don't see any way around it.

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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Barney Gumble wrote:
We are generally very keen on distinctions; there is no anti-public service witch-hunt here as far as I can tell.


Perception is a drag, isn't it? I'd be of the opinion there have been absolutely massive public-service witch-hunts here, and in the not to recent past also.


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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:18 pm 
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Posts: 729
yoganmahew wrote:
Unfortunately, that is where the problem lies. If you pay by cost of living, pay rates and cost of living will remain high.


I often hear this argument, usually as a prelude to insisting that the public sector (and, strangely, only the public sector) must take cuts to break the vicious cycle. The only people making the argument are in the private sector, but they never make it as a prelude to arguing that their own pay should be cut. Yet the cost of living in Ireland isn't high because of any putative overspending on the public sector. The cost of living is high because:

1) We have a grocery cartel with virtually no price competition. Would that the Sindo would spend 3 years demonising them...

2) As I imagine everyone on this board is aware, we had a property bubble that drove the price of housing (renting or buying) to ridiculous levels. They remain at slightly less ridiculous levels but have not fallen as one might expect.

3) We have had, until recently, semi-state monopolies on transport, electricity, gas and health insurance all of which seem to be able to charge whatever they want. These are not really part of the public sector: CIE and ESB and Bord Gais workers haven't experienced any pay cuts. The recent entrants to all of these fields (e.g. Airtricity) are only too happy to play the cartel game and offer no significant difference in price (bar special 'teaser' offers on gas and electricity).

Nurses and guards and teachers are not the reason prices are high. Maybe you should spend your energy lobbying for private sector pay cuts, yogan.


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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:20 pm 
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Fingers wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
Unfortunately, that is where the problem lies. If you pay by cost of living, pay rates and cost of living will remain high.


I often hear this argument, usually as a prelude to insisting that the public sector (and, strangely, only the public sector) must take cuts to break the vicious cycle. The only people making the argument are in the private sector, but they never make it as a prelude to arguing that their own pay should be cut.....


Total rubbish and you know it. Have you been asleep?

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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Posts: 662
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Fingers wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
Unfortunately, that is where the problem lies. If you pay by cost of living, pay rates and cost of living will remain high.


I often hear this argument, usually as a prelude to insisting that the public sector (and, strangely, only the public sector) must take cuts to break the vicious cycle. The only people making the argument are in the private sector, but they never make it as a prelude to arguing that their own pay should be cut.


How many private sector groups have 430k people on its books? Plus 400k on welfare. In a country with 2 million people who can work. Thats as close to a monoploy that you can get in terms of country employment, except for North Korea that is


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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:18 pm 
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Open Window wrote:
Fingers wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
Unfortunately, that is where the problem lies. If you pay by cost of living, pay rates and cost of living will remain high.


I often hear this argument, usually as a prelude to insisting that the public sector (and, strangely, only the public sector) must take cuts to break the vicious cycle. The only people making the argument are in the private sector, but they never make it as a prelude to arguing that their own pay should be cut.....


Total rubbish and you know it. Have you been asleep?


Dear OW,

I refer you once again to the wisdom of Upton Sinclair

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on his not understanding it."

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"By a continuing process of inflation, government can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens.- John Maynard Keynes, Economic Consequences of Peace


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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:48 pm 
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Open Window wrote:
To clarify ...


You lost me straight after that bit. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Posts: 729
Puck may be Famous wrote:
Dear OW,

I refer you once again to the wisdom of Upton Sinclair

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on his not understanding it."


Of course, this applies equally well (if you substitute "income" for "job") to those in the private sector who would rather see round after round of public sector cuts than see their own taxes go up by another penny. They don't want to hear that maybe much of what they've been led to believe might be propaganda (i.e. lies): it would mean that they might not be able to insist that someone else do all the paying.


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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:56 pm 
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macannrb wrote:
Fingers wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
Unfortunately, that is where the problem lies. If you pay by cost of living, pay rates and cost of living will remain high.


I often hear this argument, usually as a prelude to insisting that the public sector (and, strangely, only the public sector) must take cuts to break the vicious cycle. The only people making the argument are in the private sector, but they never make it as a prelude to arguing that their own pay should be cut.


How many private sector groups have 430k people on its books? Plus 400k on welfare. In a country with 2 million people who can work. Thats as close to a monoploy that you can get in terms of country employment, except for North Korea that is


Help me out here.
I think that I did this calculation before.
Anyway it goes like this. The majority of Irish people are now directly dependent or only one step removed from the government pay packet.
Note that in the above numbers (of which I'm not entirely convinced is 100% accurate but is somewhat reasonable at least) there is the missing important group of the PENSIONERS.
I think that these make up about 150K or so. Admittedly some of these are getting a private pension but many are reliant on state backed pensions and pension plans.

So, in the end then, we've got about 1,000,000 people or so in direct receipt of government pay and another 1,000,000 or so of others closely dependent on that too.

The state is in cohoots with itself.

The mania has spread far and wide.

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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:58 pm 
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Barney Gumble wrote:
1. Are public sector pay-levels in accordance with a) international norms and b) what we can afford?
2. Are there under-employed or redundant staff in the public sector that need to be sacked?
3. Are work practices in the public sector sufficiently geared towards getting the best value for money for the taxpayer?

I've worked in a large semi-state, and I guess I'm technically a PS worker right now. At the same time, looking at those questions objectively and based on my own experiences and what I have learned by other means, I would have to answer them as follows:

1. No
2. Yes
3. No


I've worked in the public and private sector too, and I'd say many of the same problems occur in the private sector. The difference is that private sector companies eventually have to either clean house or go bust. In the long run, that could happen to the public sector too, but I'd prefer not to live in the wasteland we will become if the country goes bust. Better to clean house now.

Questions about the fairness, efficiency, etc. of all this are irrelevant. The only question is:

How do we close the gap between what we are earning and what we are spending?

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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:09 pm 
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Posts: 31689
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Fingers wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
Unfortunately, that is where the problem lies. If you pay by cost of living, pay rates and cost of living will remain high.


I often hear this argument, usually as a prelude to insisting that the public sector (and, strangely, only the public sector) must take cuts to break the vicious cycle. The only people making the argument are in the private sector, but they never make it as a prelude to arguing that their own pay should be cut.

Yeah, well you didn't hear me say it, so you may keep that in your cakehole.

What I said was:
"The point, though, is not for salaries, benefits, tax rates, whatever, to keep pace with inflation, it is that the economy as a whole is both uncompetitive (for the sort of jobs that would employ a lot of people and in terms of government imposed costs on businesses (which feed into general prices)) and bust (in that the state is spending way more than it can hope to earn). That lower standard of living that bustness implies? It applies to everyone."


Quote:
Yet the cost of living in Ireland isn't high because of any putative overspending on the public sector. The cost of living is high because:

1) We have a grocery cartel with virtually no price competition. Would that the Sindo would spend 3 years demonising them...

2) As I imagine everyone on this board is aware, we had a property bubble that drove the price of housing (renting or buying) to ridiculous levels. They remain at slightly less ridiculous levels but have not fallen as one might expect.

3) We have had, until recently, semi-state monopolies on transport, electricity, gas and health insurance all of which seem to be able to charge whatever they want. These are not really part of the public sector: CIE and ESB and Bord Gais workers haven't experienced any pay cuts. The recent entrants to all of these fields (e.g. Airtricity) are only too happy to play the cartel game and offer no significant difference in price (bar special 'teaser' offers on gas and electricity).

You ahve got to be shitting me. You'll be telling me the army isn't either, or the hospital consultants, or any of the quangos, or anyone who is not frontline.

Quote:
Nurses and guards and teachers are not the reason prices are high. Maybe you should spend your energy lobbying for private sector pay cuts, yogan.

I've already taken a 100% pay cut thank you very much, as have many I know. Nobody needs to lobby for them because they are happening. 300,000 people out of employment. 15% of the peak workforce. Plenty more to come.

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"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


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 Post subject: Re: Indo: IMF to Cut Public Service Wages and Jobs
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:14 pm 
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Fingers wrote:
Puck may be Famous wrote:
Dear OW,

I refer you once again to the wisdom of Upton Sinclair

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on his not understanding it."


Of course, this applies equally well (if you substitute "income" for "job") to those in the private sector who would rather see round after round of public sector cuts than see their own taxes go up by another penny. They don't want to hear that maybe much of what they've been led to believe might be propaganda (i.e. lies): it would mean that they might not be able to insist that someone else do all the paying.

You really do think that the public sector is bearing the brunt of this economic depression,don't you? :D Have you any idea of the cuts people not in the public sector have taken?


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