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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Mar 14, 2013
Posts: 1925
slasher wrote:
saw a lot of the usual goons banging on about the lack of sprinkler system in the new hospital - Prof John "Ego the size of Manhattan" Crown for example. As usual, it takes a while before someone with relevant knowledge contributes to the "public debate"

Quote:
Sir, – Further to “Children’s hospital board appeals requirement for sprinkler system” (News, October 22nd), hospitals have the most rigorous form of building fire safety, normally in the form of what is referred to as “progressive and horizontal evacuation”.

This is an international position with regard to buildings of this nature. This is because, in the event of a fire, it is not always appropriate to evacuate very sick people out of the building into any sort of weather.
Nor is it appropriate to have patients drenched, (whether in bed in a ward or on the operating table), under a sprinkler system just because someone had a sneaky cigarette or a toaster goes on fire.

The fire compartments that separate each area, never mind areas or rooms considered hazardous, are usually of at least one-hour fire resistance as a minimum, are in turn able to escape to safe zones also of a minimum of one-hour fire resistance, within strictly coded, certified, standardised distances. Hospital building management systems also know immediately exactly where a fire is taking place and can address the problem locally and very quickly without mass evacuation or sprinklers activated.

Evidence of the precedence for the requirement for sprinklers in operating theatre areas, in one of the most safe public building types, needs to be explained in detail to us all in his instance to substantiate any further cost to the project. – Yours, etc,

CATHERINE
O’KEEFFE PRUNTY,
Lecturer in Building
Technology,
School of Architecture,
Dublin Institute
of Technology, Dublin 1.


There are a few holes in what she is saying
For one not many sneaky cigarettes or toasters on operating theaters
Surely fire alarms would be heat and smoke detection ?
Zonal sprinklers would only come on in the areas affected thereby saving the remainder of the hospital and reducing the need to evacuate the remainder of the hospital

The costs are crazy not because of the fire suppression system it due to the stupid curves probably doubling the cost, GCCC contracts, HSE and too many other cooks.
Great ormonde street building 120 bed hospital for 190 m sterling

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/201 ... t-phase-4/

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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:04 pm 
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Neo Landlord

Joined: May 21, 2017
Posts: 233
The cost of the National Childrens Hospital are spiralling like the National Maternity Hospital (though they haven't even broken ground on the latter). Today's IT has a leaked memo to Cabinet warning that the additional costs will delay, well, practically every other capital project in the health sector. Is this leak an effort to loosen the purse-strings? And will the Gardai be called in to investigate this breach of Cabinet Confidentiality - not merely a crime but an attack on Bunreacht na hEireann, as amended by the People of Ireland twenty years ago.
Will the Taoiseach correct the record of the Dail. He said this week that "the new overall cost... is €1.433 billion". According to the leaked memo:
Quote:
The total bill for developing the facility at St James’s Hospital is now expected to be more than €1.73 billion

Who's to blame for the overruns?
Quote:
The memo says the hospital project board had concluded in a report that “original estimates [for the hospital] should have been more reflective of the scale and complexity of the project relative to the capacity of the Irish construction market on a difficult congested site in a city centre location, and that a more robust early warning process during the design development phase was required”.

Guess who was responsible for the failed original (i.e. 650M.) estimate? The same project board! And how much more needs to be spent before we agree that the wrong site was chosen? Ah shure, what's an extra 300 Million? Think of the sick babies!

And what about the proposed alternative i.e. building alongside the Connolly Hospital near Blanchardstown? We were told that would be completely unsuitable but then they decided to move the Rotunda to Connolly. And now it turns out that will take up to 10 years (what do you bet?) and
Quote:
According to some informed sources, such upgrading could cost about €150 million, bringing the total bill for the planned re-location to close to €450 million overall.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ ... -1.3595092

Would this happen if a real estate developer was Taoiseach? Say one with global experience from Manhattan to Doonbeg?


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 2187
Someone seasoned in public capital shenanigans once told me that: "the only thing worse than a hole in the ground is half a hole in the ground"


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Joined: May 3, 2007
Posts: 12121
€1.7bn....jeez that eyesore at the Mater was only gonna cost €0.7bn with a Metro station included in the basement. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Neo Landlord

Joined: May 21, 2017
Posts: 233
2Pack wrote:
€1.7bn....jeez that eyesore at the Mater was only gonna cost €0.7bn with a Metro station included in the basement. :(

It gets worse:
Quote:
There is now a general acceptance in Government that there won’t be any change out of €2 billion for the hospital

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/pasc ... -1.3747872

And what about the National Maternity Hospital? That was going to cost €150 Million but then they moved it to the other side of the city and suddenly it was 300 Million.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ ... -1.2982735
Now, the 300 Million is subject to "construction inflation"
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/h ... 39970.html
Or is that 350 Million?
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-n ... n-13771888
What are the chances of finishing this project for less half a billion?
Quote:
No wonder Rhona Mahony – outgoing Master of Holles St – was so concerned to get shovels in the ground on the new National Maternity Hospital site. Anything that’s not nailed down in the health capital budget is now up for grabs.

Ah shure, what harm? So long as there's no nuns and no Mass!


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:25 pm 
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Neo Landlord

Joined: May 21, 2017
Posts: 233
What chance of getting these costs under control when the top manager thinks it's all normal

Quote:
He asked Ms Conroy to agree that there has been a “catastrophic failure of management” of the project.

Ms Conroy told Mr Donnelly that she did not accept this.

She said that while the cost was at the higher end, at €6,500 per sq m, it matched international norms.


Where on earth is €6,500 per sq m normal?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ ... -1.3767872


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:08 pm 
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Private Tenant

Joined: Sep 2, 2018
Posts: 34
Lefournier3 wrote:
What chance of getting these costs under control when the top manager thinks it's all normal

Quote:
He asked Ms Conroy to agree that there has been a “catastrophic failure of management” of the project.

Ms Conroy told Mr Donnelly that she did not accept this.

She said that while the cost was at the higher end, at €6,500 per sq m, it matched international norms.


Where on earth is €6,500 per sq m normal?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ ... -1.3767872


I'm always dubious when problems with big projects are attributed to a small group of incompetents. It's possible but it seems a bit too neat.

Are the cost overruns down to builders padding invoices systematically?


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:57 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Nov 4, 2011
Posts: 6078
Location: SthDub
Why haven't BAM being called in? Where's the forensic accountants on comparing the new costs to the old so an exact summary of where the over runs are occurring can be seen?
Where's that useless pile of dung, Simon Harris on this? The Minister who said he won't put a price on completing the hospital and effectively wrote a blank cheque.

How are there not riots on the streets over this epic screw up :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:16 am 
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Single Home Owner

Joined: Jul 24, 2018
Posts: 121
2Pack wrote:
€1.7bn....jeez that eyesore at the Mater was only gonna cost €0.7bn with a Metro station included in the basement. :(



Id say the chances of the Mater costing 0.7 billion were 0 or soem figure with a lot of zeros i.e. 2,000,000,000


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:33 pm 
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Neo Landlord

Joined: May 21, 2017
Posts: 233
FreeFallin wrote:
How are there not riots on the streets over this epic screw up :evil:

Because it's not taxpayers' money - its all borrowed, and at close to zero interest (grazie mille, Mario!).
If we actually had to pay for it ( @ 1,000 Euro per household, and rising), we would see protests to dwarf the water charges.

The only problem? Europe is limiting our magic credit card. :( So we have to "delay" other capital projects. The health mafia thought they could grab money from outside the health budget (think about the sick babbies! Pay the nurses more! No, I mean more more), but everyone sees through their game so now we are reading about all the health projects which are long-fingered i.e. won't start before the next election, the only timescale that counts. (How's that Cath Lab going, Waterford?) . You'll see lots of local protests and promising political careers will be ended, but it will be a scramble, not a national campaign.


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