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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:47 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
The whole debate grossly misunderstands the issue; transport and parking are very much secondary to having a medically brilliant facility. Connolly cannot be compared with James' in any way; it's suitable for patching up stabbing victims and shipping off the seriously injured to better hospitals but it's not a top-tier hospital in any way.

Well, transport is relevant for those who'll make a big chunk of the journeys - the staff. What's the staff/patient ratio at a large hospital? 1-1?

Quote:
This is similar to the argument about closing regional A&Es. In many cases closing them is a big step forward in saving lives. When it comes to hospitals, big generally means good and small generally means bad. We need fewer, bigger hospitals operating more departments more hours of the day.

As I've said before, if you need a hospital anywhere near Dublin for something urgent but non-life-threatening, go to one of the private urgent-care facilities (Switfcare; Blackrock A&E, etc). If it's more serious, drive past all other hospitals on the way to one of Tallaght, James's, Beaumont, the Mater or Vincent's. Do not stop anywhere else.

Right, I got that advice from more than one consultant for my condition.

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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:18 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
Actually SVUH is largely funded by the taxpayer. So while the government can't technically force them to do anything, they can in practice tell them what to do.

The thing is, one can see both sides of the argument (and I don't for a moment believe that there's ideological differences at stake; it's a power struggle between two big orginisations). But there must be a "right" way to colocate a maternity and an adult hospital. Figure out the right way (looking at other countries) and do it. This does not take months. But it does take a Minister who's not afraid to kick add and take names.

By the way I also don't believe that they asked anyone to resign. That's not the way TUPE works.

Eh. no, it's ideological, at least in part. Hence the success of the Coombe... many women choose a hospital that prioritises their life.

edit: qualify...


+1m (as a woman of child-bearing age). I would be frankly, frightened to have a difficult pregnancy at the mercy of the Sisters of 'Charity'. Their stymieing of the new NMH is despicable and as TI said, is nothing other than a transparent (and sinister IMO) attempt at a power grab.
As regards the State, being the funding body, forcing them to allow NMH retain its own governance structure, well, you'd think that would be possible but, as has been shown by the lack of appetite to tackle the schools on discriminatory admissions policies, this would appear to be more difficult than one would think it should be. Of course it might be convenient for our government to give that impression too.
:nin


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:39 pm 
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I am currently in the US. Before arriving in Boston I did some research about the locations of the better maternity hospitals, since Mrs Mantissa is preggers. Guess what? There's no such thing. OBGYN is a speciality in a lot of the good hospitals, but the idea of having it as a separate organisation seems alien in this part of the world.

Just a data point. Ireland's Heath system is of course different in many ways, but still..


If Holles St was given a cast-iron guarantee that there would be no religious say in what procedures could be carried out or how they were done would the consultants be happy to be subsumed into the SVHG structure and lose the control they currently enjoy? I think not. Not sure I blame them but I don't believe it's all ideological (and I'm no fan of nuns).

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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:57 pm 
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Mantissa wrote:
I am currently in the US. Before arriving in Boston I did some research about the locations of the better maternity hospitals, since Mrs Mantissa is preggers. Guess what? There's no such thing. OBGYN is a speciality in a lot of the good hospitals, but the idea of having it as a separate organisation seems alien in this part of the world.

Just a data point. Ireland's Heath system is of course different in many ways, but still..


If Holles St was given a cast-iron guarantee that there would be no religious say in what procedures could be carried out or how they were done would the consultants be happy to be subsumed into the SVHG structure and lose the control they currently enjoy? I think not. Not sure I blame them but I don't believe it's all ideological (and I'm no fan of nuns).


Do you know if the current board of Holle's st are being offered board postitions at SVH?
I suppose they would still lose the control with their lower percentage vote on new board!


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:59 pm 
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temene wrote:
Anyone listening to Newstalk for the past 90 minutes?
Completely blew out of the water for James' to be the new location stating it's essentially a political decision and it's closer to Trinners than the Blanch ..and an underground car parking space will cost €138k each to create :-x

Hospital should be in Connolly, despite the slick warblings of James' spokesperson
http://www.newstalk.com/National-Childr ... inion-Poll


What is the purpose of this raising of a dead horse? The Hospital has planning permission. It's going to go ahead. I don't understand this sudden raising of the Titanic. Whose playing politics with an issue that has now passed the final procedural hurdle of planning. Preliminary work as I understand it has already begun.

Politicians and media nothing better to do?

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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:02 am 
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What Mantissa said.

I spent a good bit of time up and down to James's a few years back.

The place is NOT congested 22 hours a day when much of the outpatient visits and many of the staff movements will take place.

I know people who living 250km from Dublin who drive there regularly for treatment because they know it's where they'll get the best care. 10 minutes (on average) extra compared to an M50 location will not make a difference. It also serves those of us who live inside the M50 better.


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:33 am 
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Glad to hear this week that the NMH and St Vincent's have agreed a governance structure and the new maternity hospital is going ahead on the grounds of SVUH. As a current client of the NHM they do an amazing job with a really old building and badly deserve a new purpose-built facility.

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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:21 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
Glad to hear this week that the NMH and St Vincent's have agreed a governance structure and the new maternity hospital is going ahead on the grounds of SVUH. As a current client of the NHM they do an amazing job with a really old building and badly deserve a new purpose-built facility.


+1

Maternity services in Ireland are decrepit.

They cynic in me wonders what they would look like if astronomical sums weren't going on payouts.....


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:02 am 
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Sneaked out over the weekend.

Quote:
State awards €1bn children’s hospital contract to BAM Ireland

The contract to build the long-awaited national children’s hospital in Dublin has been awarded – at a price €300 million more than the original budget of €650 million.

BAM Ireland, one of the State’s largest building contractors, has been selected as the preferred bidder to build the hospital for a price understood to be close to €1 billion, The Irish Times has learned. This does not include the cost of IT or equipment for the hospital, which is likely to exceed €100 million in each instance.

The decision, which was disclosed to the company on Friday, is subject to a 14-day cooling off period to allow for objections or other legal issues. BAM submitted the lowest bid of the four companies on the shortlist.

The steep rise in the projected cost of the project presents the Government with a challenging decision, given the competing demands for health spending and continued opposition to the St James’s site in some quarters.

...


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/s ... -1.2962801


Quote:
Children’s hospital price tag of €1.9m per bed unusually high

The €1 billion tender accepted for the proposed new Children’s Hospital in Dublin indicates an expensive development on a cost-per-bed basis, according to a source with knowledge of the industry.

The price to be charged for building the hospital also appears high when compared with the cost of hospitals built recently in the UK and and US.

The source, who has experience of building hospitals, said he considered a €1 million per bed price as reasonable, including equipment.

...


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/c ... -1.2964668

Why would "the source" not want to put their name to their work?

The Indo went with Alan Kelly :roll:
Quote:

Kelly has demanded that Health Minister Simon Harris tell TDs why the cost has risen by more than €300m from an estimated €650m now that the preferred bidder to build the hospital has been selected.

He said that the ultimate cost will be €1.2bn after the hospital is kitted out with equipment and IT.


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/po ... 24313.html

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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Another over priced public piece of infrastructure. I'm not surprised.
What I will be surprised by is the project not costing at least 3 times the original €650m by the time the doors open. And not 1 person will be fired over getting the figures so wrong.
Varadakar was on SO'R this AM and blamed it all on building inflation costs!


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:45 pm 
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FreeFallin wrote:
Another over priced public piece of infrastructure. I'm not surprised.
What I will be surprised by is the project not costing at least 3 times the original €650m by the time the doors open. And not 1 person will be fired over getting the figures so wrong.
Varadakar was on SO'R this AM and blamed it all on building inflation costs!

FFS

This inability to *deliver* is insane. It's not actually that complicated (I mean, building a hospital like this *is* complicated, but the expertise exists to do it reliably and there are enough providers who can build it for you that you should be able to plan it and procure it competitively and to have a pretty good idea of the costing before you go to market... I say this not having procured a €650m project, but I have experience of multiple ~€100m projects adding up to that)


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:44 am 
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HSE Chief says we cannot afford to sign off on building the hospital as it is too expensive..
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/h ... -1.2967260


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:00 pm 
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They have a 13bn annual budget and their budget for capital is only 500m.
The Unions and VIs have shaped that health service in to a cashpipe to their pockets.
The snouts at the trough are saying "find yourself another trough".


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Col. Max Pyatnitski wrote:
FreeFallin wrote:
Another over priced public piece of infrastructure. I'm not surprised.
What I will be surprised by is the project not costing at least 3 times the original €650m by the time the doors open. And not 1 person will be fired over getting the figures so wrong.
Varadakar was on SO'R this AM and blamed it all on building inflation costs!

FFS

This inability to *deliver* is insane. It's not actually that complicated (I mean, building a hospital like this *is* complicated, but the expertise exists to do it reliably and there are enough providers who can build it for you that you should be able to plan it and procure it competitively and to have a pretty good idea of the costing before you go to market... I say this not having procured a €650m project, but I have experience of multiple ~€100m projects adding up to that)


The chief problem is it is a difficult site to develop plus HSE adding in bells and whistles rather than practicality

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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:55 pm 
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The private sector is doing a 68m extension to the Frascati shopping centre in Blackrock. I am not an expert but I am sure one could argue a case for the Children's Hospital being a x15 multiple of a suburban shopping centre extension.


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