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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:54 pm 
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Quote:
and an underground car parking space will cost €138k each to create


I want to address this a little bit more.
Connolly is my closest hospital, 4km an 8 minute drive.
I'm slightly further from the Mater and the Rotunda (about 6km) both of which I've had occasion to visit as a patient in the last year.

The Rotunda visits were as follows:
1) Booking Visit at 12 weeks (diagnosed as missed-miscarriage)
2) D&C Operation
3-6) 4 x follow up blood tests, 1 per week
7) Booking Visit at 9 weeks
8) 16 week follow up

The Mater Private Visits were as follows:
1) Pre-Op assessment
2-3) Operation (incl overnight stay, so 1 journey for me, 2 for hubby)
4) Post-Op assessment

With the exception of the D&C itself and the operation (2 car trips needed), all of those visits were readily accomplished by public transport.
8 out of 12, or 75%. If I'd been visiting Connolly for them, they would all have been driven.

The overall point, the headline figure of E138K per parking space might be higher, but for a site like James or the Mater you'll need a fraction of the parking spaces simply because they're accessible to hundreds of thousands more people by public transport.


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:06 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Aug 8, 2008
Posts: 3597
Location: Cathair na dTreabh
Was I brainwashed then?
A point was made that a National Childrens Hospital does not have to be a teaching hospital. It's not just a Dublin facility.
There was a good speaker on who had chemo as a child describing his trips from Galway to Crumlin by car for seven months. He said a child receiving chemo cannot really travel by public transport as their immune system is compromised. He's now a doctor working in James' and stated that the James' proposal is a bad idea.
He also stated that the proposed helipad at James' cannot accommodate the Sikorsky rescue helicopter!


The reason Connolly is mentioned is that both the Childrens and Maternity hospitals would be co-located there.
€138k per underground car parking space is not money we the taxpayer can spare.
http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/The_Pat_Kenny_Show/


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:08 pm 
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You really think a national children's hospital that's not also a teaching hospital is a good idea?
Exactly where do you think our best doctors will get the best training?

The mind boggles.

Look there is no doubt that there will be many patients who will have no option but to take private transport* to hospital for all sorts of reasons, but it's not like either the Mater or James have no car parking whatsoever.

For every patient who does need to take private transport, there will be dozens of other journeys to the hospital by staff, by visitors, by not so sick patients that could potentially use public transport. If you pick a site where all of those have to drive too you'll have to build vast car parks, multiples of the size you need for better located sites. On top of that, you make life extremely difficult for the families that don't have a car and/or can't drive for some reason.

And, to top all that off, the difference in journey time between say the N4/M50 junction and the new James site, vs the N4/M50 junction and the new Connolly site, is really not that great so there's very little time or inconvenience saving on the journey, but there is an additional toll unless you take the back (longer) road. That'll add E4.40 to your journey.


Last edited by jess on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:13 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

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Posts: 3597
Location: Cathair na dTreabh
jess wrote:
You really think a national children's hospital that's not also a teaching hospital is a good idea?
Exactly where do you think our best doctors will get the best training?
The mind boggles.

Well obviously it would be a teaching hospital, just not a currently established one.
I'm not an expert :? I was listening to the arguments and they made sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:29 pm 
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I think we can all agree there is no one ideal site; unfortunately there are "politicians" involved in this who have never stood for election.

Random doctors or charity heads aren't saints and they're not logistics experts - they should stand up their assertions with complete data not cherry pick aspects backed with assorted sob stories


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:58 pm 
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Joined: Aug 21, 2009
Posts: 4518
Location: Mesopotatia
jess wrote:
Quote:
and an underground car parking space will cost €138k each to create


I want to address this a little bit more.
Connolly is my closest hospital, 4km an 8 minute drive.
I'm slightly further from the Mater and the Rotunda (about 6km) both of which I've had occasion to visit as a patient in the last year.

The Rotunda visits were as follows:
1) Booking Visit at 12 weeks (diagnosed as missed-miscarriage)
2) D&C Operation
3-6) 4 x follow up blood tests, 1 per week
7) Booking Visit at 9 weeks
8) 16 week follow up

The Mater Private Visits were as follows:
1) Pre-Op assessment
2-3) Operation (incl overnight stay, so 1 journey for me, 2 for hubby)
4) Post-Op assessment

With the exception of the D&C itself and the operation (2 car trips needed), all of those visits were readily accomplished by public transport.
8 out of 12, or 75%. If I'd been visiting Connolly for them, they would all have been driven.

The overall point, the headline figure of E138K per parking space might be higher, but for a site like James or the Mater you'll need a fraction of the parking spaces simply because they're accessible to hundreds of thousands more people by public transport.


A very short spur from the Maynooth line (for example just before the train line crosses the M50 from the east following the Tolka river) could easily connect the hospital to the train network. The Luas network will soon intersect the Rail network at Broombridge. An orbital bus along the M50 could collect any buses coming to Dublin from the rest of the country. I don't think the public transport options as a cost benefit were properly investigated. Or it could be that they didn't arrive at the conclusions I would have liked :D

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The real damage is done by those millions who want to 'get by'. The ordinary men who just want to be left in peace. Those who don’t want their lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with no sides and no causes. Those who won’t take measure of their own strength, for fear of antagonizing their own weakness. Those people who roll up their spirits into tiny little balls so as to be safe. Safe?! From what?
Sophie Scholl


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:29 pm 
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Joined: Apr 21, 2008
Posts: 1488
Dubhgeannain wrote:
jess wrote:
Quote:
and an underground car parking space will cost €138k each to create


I want to address this a little bit more.
Connolly is my closest hospital, 4km an 8 minute drive.
I'm slightly further from the Mater and the Rotunda (about 6km) both of which I've had occasion to visit as a patient in the last year.

The Rotunda visits were as follows:
1) Booking Visit at 12 weeks (diagnosed as missed-miscarriage)
2) D&C Operation
3-6) 4 x follow up blood tests, 1 per week
7) Booking Visit at 9 weeks
8) 16 week follow up

The Mater Private Visits were as follows:
1) Pre-Op assessment
2-3) Operation (incl overnight stay, so 1 journey for me, 2 for hubby)
4) Post-Op assessment

With the exception of the D&C itself and the operation (2 car trips needed), all of those visits were readily accomplished by public transport.
8 out of 12, or 75%. If I'd been visiting Connolly for them, they would all have been driven.

The overall point, the headline figure of E138K per parking space might be higher, but for a site like James or the Mater you'll need a fraction of the parking spaces simply because they're accessible to hundreds of thousands more people by public transport.


A very short spur from the Maynooth line (for example just before the train line crosses the M50 from the east following the Tolka river) could easily connect the hospital to the train network. The Luas network will soon intersect the Rail network at Broombridge. An orbital bus along the M50 could collect any buses coming to Dublin from the rest of the country. I don't think the public transport options as a cost benefit were properly investigated. Or it could be that they didn't arrive at the conclusions I would have liked :D


That sort of point just illustrates how little people really understand of the issues at play.

The spur you're talking about has to cross a canal and a river (neither cheap), would need upgrades in capacity at Connolly (not cheap) as well as major upgrades to several level crossing (also not cheap) all of which would result in a public transport connection that is still worse then that which exists at James. (And would be available at the Mater once the currently under construction Green Luas line finishes).

What's the cost of running what amounts to a minor branch line of a minor train line specifically to service the hospital?

There is zero possibility that that solution is better then building underground parking at James.


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:13 pm 
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Joined: Aug 21, 2009
Posts: 4518
Location: Mesopotatia
jess wrote:
Dubhgeannain wrote:
jess wrote:
Quote:
and an underground car parking space will cost €138k each to create


I want to address this a little bit more.
Connolly is my closest hospital, 4km an 8 minute drive.
I'm slightly further from the Mater and the Rotunda (about 6km) both of which I've had occasion to visit as a patient in the last year.

The Rotunda visits were as follows:
1) Booking Visit at 12 weeks (diagnosed as missed-miscarriage)
2) D&C Operation
3-6) 4 x follow up blood tests, 1 per week
7) Booking Visit at 9 weeks
8) 16 week follow up

The Mater Private Visits were as follows:
1) Pre-Op assessment
2-3) Operation (incl overnight stay, so 1 journey for me, 2 for hubby)
4) Post-Op assessment

With the exception of the D&C itself and the operation (2 car trips needed), all of those visits were readily accomplished by public transport.
8 out of 12, or 75%. If I'd been visiting Connolly for them, they would all have been driven.

The overall point, the headline figure of E138K per parking space might be higher, but for a site like James or the Mater you'll need a fraction of the parking spaces simply because they're accessible to hundreds of thousands more people by public transport.


A very short spur from the Maynooth line (for example just before the train line crosses the M50 from the east following the Tolka river) could easily connect the hospital to the train network. The Luas network will soon intersect the Rail network at Broombridge. An orbital bus along the M50 could collect any buses coming to Dublin from the rest of the country. I don't think the public transport options as a cost benefit were properly investigated. Or it could be that they didn't arrive at the conclusions I would have liked :D


That sort of point just illustrates how little people really understand of the issues at play.

The spur you're talking about has to cross a canal and a river (neither cheap), would need upgrades in capacity at Connolly (not cheap) as well as major upgrades to several level crossing (also not cheap) all of which would result in a public transport connection that is still worse then that which exists at James. (And would be available at the Mater once the currently under construction Green Luas line finishes).

What's the cost of running what amounts to a minor branch line of a minor train line specifically to service the hospital?

There is zero possibility that that solution is better then building underground parking at James.


I don't think cost was the biggest factor in arrival at the final decision (and rightly so for the national children's hospital) but do you think the overall cost of construction in James' will be cheaper than at Blanchardstown? Ignoring infrastructure upgrades for a moment.

A cheaper alternative would be shuttle buses from Castleknock or Phoenix Park station. I understand your point about Connolly capacity upgrade but that's the kind of thing that wouldn't just benefit the hospital.

I like how you can state something as zero possibility by the way without a crystal ball. :roll:

_________________
The real damage is done by those millions who want to 'get by'. The ordinary men who just want to be left in peace. Those who don’t want their lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with no sides and no causes. Those who won’t take measure of their own strength, for fear of antagonizing their own weakness. Those people who roll up their spirits into tiny little balls so as to be safe. Safe?! From what?
Sophie Scholl


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:30 pm 
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Posts: 1488
Dubhgeannain wrote:
I don't think cost was the biggest factor in arrival at the final decision (and rightly so for the national children's hospital) but do you think the overall cost of construction in James' will be cheaper than at Blanchardstown? Ignoring infrastructure upgrades for a moment.

A cheaper alternative would be shuttle buses from Castleknock or Phoenix Park station. I understand your point about Connolly capacity upgrade but that's the kind of thing that wouldn't just benefit the hospital.

I like how you can state something as zero possibility by the way without a crystal ball. :roll:


I have a PhD in transport engineering so while there's a crystal ball involved, it's not said without some background knowledge.

The overall cost of construction shouldn't be the determining factor.
The best hospital at which to locate it should be.
The best hospital is the one with the most complementary services that can be used to reinforce standards, protocols, training and enable the best care for patients.

Comparing James and Connolly, that's James every time. A brief comparison of their respective list of departments will tell you that.
http://www.stjames.ie/Departments/DepartmentsA-Z/
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=ie
It's a no brainer.

The only possible reason to choose Connolly would be because it offered some other benefit (the next biggest being infrastructure & access related) or that the cost was sufficiently cheaper to make it worth moving more facilities from James to Connolly, i.e. relocating James almost entirely to Connolly.

There is only one grounds by which Connolly is a good choice for the National Children's hospital - that there is more land available. It fails every other criteria.

The whole thing is preposterous.


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:54 pm 
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Darn. I was hoping for a crystal ball. :D

As a PHD you can obviously understand where the use of the term "zero possibility" is justified and where it's not.

Personally I don't think the whole thing is preposterous either especially where cost is not the main factor, which we both agree on. If the better services are in and around the James' site why not move the whole lot? People have to move for their jobs all the time.

I've just a lowly masters in electronic engineering myself and am not claiming to be an expert but obviously have a curiosity about the whole thing. I can accept that my thoughts on the matter are under-informed so appreciate your insights.

_________________
The real damage is done by those millions who want to 'get by'. The ordinary men who just want to be left in peace. Those who don’t want their lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with no sides and no causes. Those who won’t take measure of their own strength, for fear of antagonizing their own weakness. Those people who roll up their spirits into tiny little balls so as to be safe. Safe?! From what?
Sophie Scholl


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:13 pm 
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James's is the best hospital in the country, with the highest quality staff; probably followed by the Mater.
Putting the tertiary care Children's Hospital alongside either is an absolute no-brainer if you want the best care for those children.

This is not a hospital for kids who burn their fingers playing with a Superser, it is for very sick children who need the very best care.

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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:20 pm 
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Dr Eamonn Faller that was on Newstalk this morning coming up on TodayFM
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comme ... 93006.html


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:53 pm 
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Honestly, he knows nothing about running a hospital, hospital access or hospital planning.
He has some experience having been a patient and working in the hospital but that in no way makes him qualified enough to give weight to the judgement he's making.

Quote:
Those in favour of St James's say the children's hospital must be co-located with an adult hospital. They are vague about the reasons because it's not going to save any lives.


This actually worries me, because co-locating with an adult hospital very clearly saves lives. You get better sub-specialities and an increased ability to ask for expert advice from other doctors. In his own case, as a cancer patient of 14, he probably would have benefited from co-location simply because as a teenager he was closer in size to an adult patient, and there could well have been more suitable equipment available in a co-located hospital. A doctor should know that, and those planning the hospital aren't in the least bit vague about it.

On the access issue:

Quote:
even before the 10,000 arrivals and departures per day, the road leading up to it has tailbacks hundreds of metres long.

Quote:
They cite Luas stops when asked about access.


One one level he talks about 10,000 journeys a day to the hospital, bemoans traffic delays and then he ridicules those of us talking about public transport.
What exactly does he think will happen to traffic delays at the area around a site with no public transport when X thousand extra journeys a day are suddenly added?

Yes, a sick kid needs to get there in a car and there needs to be parking for that.
If everyone is driving and looking for parking, the situation will not be any better then the restricted parking they're proposing at James's.

The difference between Connolly and James's does not amount to an extra hour each way, especially travelling from Galway.
The journey time between the two hospitals at the worst time for traffic is 40mins. That's the maximum possible difference.

From Liffey Valley (a convenient point to illustrate the journey from Galway) James's takes about 10 minutes longer then to Connolly at peak hour.

His comments on the size of the site are equally ill informed given he's not an architect, an engineer or any type of construction/hospital planning professional.


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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:08 pm 
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Quote:
Those in favour of St James's say the children's hospital must be co-located with an adult hospital. They are vague about the reasons because it's not going to save any lives.


That's wrong and irresponsible.

He was an SHO in James and once was a patient?

Quote:
“Admittedly, the services available at Connolly would be less so,” he adds.

_________________
Profits = Investment – Household Savings – Government Savings – Foreign Savings + Dividends

(i.e. company profits are directly fed, in part, by government deficits)

BANKS DON'T LEND RESERVES
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 Post subject: Re: Childrens Hospital Refused Planning
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:35 am 
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The whole debate grossly misunderstands the issue; transport and parking are very much secondary to having a medically brilliant facility. Connolly cannot be compared with James' in any way; it's suitable for patching up stabbing victims and shipping off the seriously injured to better hospitals but it's not a top-tier hospital in any way.

This is similar to the argument about closing regional A&Es. In many cases closing them is a big step forward in saving lives. When it comes to hospitals, big generally means good and small generally means bad. We need fewer, bigger hospitals operating more departments more hours of the day.

As I've said before, if you need a hospital anywhere near Dublin for something urgent but non-life-threatening, go to one of the private urgent-care facilities (Switfcare; Blackrock A&E, etc). If it's more serious, drive past all other hospitals on the way to one of Tallaght, James's, Beaumont, the Mater or Vincent's. Do not stop anywhere else.

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