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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:31 pm 
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https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environ ... -1.3312015

Quote:
New Poolbeg incinerator reaches full capacity at 1,800 tonnes a day
HEA launched criminal investigation after a lime leak in June resulted in 11 workers being hospitalised


Poolbeg at capacity, naturally former IT editor Kevin O'Sullivan feels the need to focus on the issues in commisioning and a spurious claim

Quote:
Separately in July residents living near the incinerator complained about a large infestation of flies but Covanta denied it was connected to the incinerator.

rather than this

Quote:
The facility has also been designed to provide energy for district heating nearby to meet the equivalent needs of more than 50,000 homes. “The heat could be deployed as soon as the necessary piping to homes in the area has been installed. Dublin City Council is actively examining ways and means in which this might be done,” it added.


amazing that John Gormley and his pals have done nothing to capture this free energy


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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:42 pm 
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slasher wrote:

Quote:
The facility has also been designed to provide energy for district heating nearby to meet the equivalent needs of more than 50,000 homes. “The heat could be deployed as soon as the necessary piping to homes in the area has been installed. Dublin City Council is actively examining ways and means in which this might be done,” it added.


amazing that John Gormley and his pals have done nothing to capture this free energy


The development at the old glass bottle site should be able to make use of some of the district heating potential. But retro-fitting existing housing stock to run on the hot water is unlikely to be cost-effective.

As pointed out earlier in the thread, the nearest human habitation is 800m from the incinerator.


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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:31 am 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
slasher wrote:

Quote:
The facility has also been designed to provide energy for district heating nearby to meet the equivalent needs of more than 50,000 homes. “The heat could be deployed as soon as the necessary piping to homes in the area has been installed. Dublin City Council is actively examining ways and means in which this might be done,” it added.


amazing that John Gormley and his pals have done nothing to capture this free energy


The development at the old glass bottle site should be able to make use of some of the district heating potential. But retro-fitting existing housing stock to run on the hot water is unlikely to be cost-effective.

As pointed out earlier in the thread, the nearest human habitation is 800m from the incinerator.

Every other European country can do it ( I assume at an economical rate). I dont think its economics, I think it political

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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:50 am 
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I have read up on this. It is an engineering problem.

It is quite easy with new build.

It is very hard with existing dwellings as you would have to dig up front gardens and retrofit central heating systems to work with the district heating system.


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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
I have read up on this. It is an engineering problem.

It is quite easy with new build.

It is very hard with existing dwellings as you would have to dig up front gardens and retrofit central heating systems to work with the district heating system.

I'm sure you're right. My point is more that instead of fighting the inevitable tooth and nail for years they could have accepted and planned for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:12 am 
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slasher wrote:
I'm sure you're right. My point is more that instead of fighting the inevitable tooth and nail for years they could have accepted and planned for it.


The whole thing was delayed by over a decade of planning and regulatory messing. This included a two-year periodwhen the Minister for Environment sat on an application by DCC for a foreshore licence.

You can see why people building houses didn't bank on the district heating ever happening.....


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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:23 pm 
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The Poolbeg Plume Plotter

http://plumeplotter.com/poolbeg/


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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
The Poolbeg Plume Plotter

http://plumeplotter.com/poolbeg/


All seems to in order there or am I missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:56 pm 
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It used Modelling rather than actual data

Quote:
http://plumeplotter.com/poolbeg/about.html
Plume Plotter predicts this fallout using AERMOD, which is one of the most widely used modelling systems for air pollution. It uses the latest local weather conditions and upper air data, which are obtained in real time. Plume Plotter does not use real-time information about the incinerator's emissions. Instead, it assumes that the incinerator is operating continuously (8760 hours per year) and emitting pollutants at a constant rate. The emission rates assumed are the long-term emission rates that were specified by the incinerator developers in their planning application. The other parameters (e.g. emission velocity and temperature) used are also taken directly from the planning application


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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Unfortunately Covanta have no intention of releasing meaningful data on the plume emissions. The plume plotter just shows where those unknown emissions are right now.

http://www.thejournal.ie/poolbeg-incine ... 7-Jun2017/


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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:23 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
Unfortunately Covanta have no intention of releasing meaningful data on the plume emissions. The plume plotter just shows where those unknown emissions are right now.

http://www.thejournal.ie/poolbeg-incine ... 7-Jun2017/


There's some data available: https://www.dublinwastetoenergy.ie/Abou ... sions-Data

With a note that
Quote:
Additional emissions data will be available during the commissioning of the facility, in accordance with requirements set out by the EPA.


Not realtime for the emissions at this point, just at least daily averages.


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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Ultimately DCC should have little or nothing to do with building or operating the district heat system; one of the existing utilities would presumably be granted a license to build and operate it. Bord Gais would be the obvious candidate in terms of expertise given that they operate both the gas and water networks so they know how to move stuff around in pipes, but I wonder if their gas assets would be a conflict of interest — given that district heat is designed to be super cheap they would have an incentive to make it not work so that it doesn’t affect gas sales in the relevant areas. SSE are investing in infrastructure now so they could be a candidate.

Anyway nothing will happen until a sufficiently large development is launched in the area. Only makes sense at scale.

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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:37 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
Ultimately DCC should have little or nothing to do with building or operating the district heat system; one of the existing utilities would presumably be granted a license to build and operate it. Bord Gais would be the obvious candidate in terms of expertise given that they operate both the gas and water networks so they know how to move stuff around in pipes, but I wonder if their gas assets would be a conflict of interest — given that district heat is designed to be super cheap they would have an incentive to make it not work so that it doesn’t affect gas sales in the relevant areas. SSE are investing in infrastructure now so they could be a candidate.

Anyway nothing will happen until a sufficiently large development is launched in the area. Only makes sense at scale.


Bord Gais actually already operate some district/building heating; I was a customer of Bord Gais Heat for a while. Most frustrating consumer experience I’ve ever had; I think it was just one person in there dealing with it. Very cheap when it worked, mind you, cheaper than gas. (I think it was using surplus heat from an office building with thermal solar panels). There seem to be a good few operators of apartment complex-scale district heating systems, tho.

As mentioned above, the glass bottle site would be a great place to use heat from the incinerator, assuming it ever gets built.


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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Worstpigeon wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
Ultimately DCC should have little or nothing to do with building or operating the district heat system; one of the existing utilities would presumably be granted a license to build and operate it. Bord Gais would be the obvious candidate in terms of expertise given that they operate both the gas and water networks so they know how to move stuff around in pipes, but I wonder if their gas assets would be a conflict of interest — given that district heat is designed to be super cheap they would have an incentive to make it not work so that it doesn’t affect gas sales in the relevant areas. SSE are investing in infrastructure now so they could be a candidate.

Anyway nothing will happen until a sufficiently large development is launched in the area. Only makes sense at scale.


Bord Gais actually already operate some district/building heating; I was a customer of Bord Gais Heat for a while. Most frustrating consumer experience I’ve ever had; I think it was just one person in there dealing with it. Very cheap when it worked, mind you, cheaper than gas. (I think it was using surplus heat from an office building with thermal solar panels). There seem to be a good few operators of apartment complex-scale district heating systems, tho.

As mentioned above, the glass bottle site would be a great place to use heat from the incinerator, assuming it ever gets built.


Wow, I had no idea district heat existed here already. Can't find any mention of it. Maybe they stopped?

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 Post subject: Re: Poolbeg incinerator - devaluation of surrounding areas?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:53 pm 
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The Ballymun flats all had underfloor heating provided by district heating. My wife grew up drying her clothes by spreading them on the floor and cooling down their flat by opening windows.

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