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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn + UK GE 17
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:41 am 
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Coles2 wrote:
slasher wrote:
UK Productivity has been very poor for a long time and is a significant part of the reason for poor wage growth. What does Corbyn propose to address this?

His conduct during the Brexit campaign was appalling, not the most competitive and productive UK industry is borked as a result (he was in bed while the country was in turmoil)

Shipman's book "All out War" is a great read; obviously Cameron et al come out poorly but Corbyn and MacDonald do too

The Tories called the BREXIT referendum, not Corbyn, so it's amusing to see people try to blame him for it.

The continuous assaults on Corbyn by the Murdock press that were so eagerly lapped up around here, but still Corbyn campaigned more and more effectively against Brexit than any other politician, and you know what? It's ironic that all the assaults on Corbyn actually meant that that balanced media outlets couldn't report on his campaigning in order to maintain balance. The mixed messages of the Tories squabbling and scaremongering got reported but not the real debates and discussions that happened through out the UK.

This is worth reading from the London School of Economics. Deals with a lot of the tabloid falsehoods.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/08/1 ... -campaign/


so you haven't read the book?
that bit underlined is simply a lie worthy of the Murdock [sic] press. Corbyn's heart was never in campaigning to remain

Do you think Alan Johnson [Labour stalworth] is telling the truth below? Jack Straw? Corbyn the cretin even proposed that Cameron trigger Article 50 right away. Do you deny that?

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/313 ... ll-out-war

All Out War, Tim Shipman wrote:
Clearing a grid was one thing; getting Labour high command to do anything useful with the time set aside for them was another. Peter Mandelson rang Tom Watson and Iain McNicol, the general secretary of the party, to tell them of the dire situation and to ask them to pull out all the stops, promising that the campaign would fight to secure them air time and would provide any resources and back-up they needed. Both Watson and McNicol made it clear that the leader’s office was the obstacle to anything happening, and that Seumas Milne, Corbyn’s director of strategy and communications, and all-purpose panjandrum, was blocking effective campaigning by going over campaign materials and scripts with an unhelpful fine-tooth comb. They said they would do all they could, but without Corbyn’s or shadow chancellor John McDonnell’s support (which neither expected) there was a limit to what they could do. Straw says, ‘All of us were absolutely clear about the need to get Labour into the debate. We had no trust in the leadership to deliver it, so we had to deliver it ourselves.’ Cameron agreed to stand aside from an event at de Montfort University in Leicester, but all efforts to get Jeremy Corbyn to take his place failed. ‘We spent the entire weekend trying to get Jeremy to go to that event, and he basically just refused hands-down,’ says a Labour source. ‘Tom Watson was ringing him, Ed Miliband was ringing him.’ Eventually Gordon Brown was lined up instead.

The situation was all too familiar to the Labour people at Stronger In, senior officials in party headquarters and those around Alan Johnson, who was running the Labour In for Britain campaign. For months Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne had engaged in a policy of non-cooperation and obstructionism that convinced many leading Remain campaigners and Labour frontbenchers that, at best, they did not care if Stronger In won the referendum, or at worst – a sentiment that grew towards polling day – that they actively sought to sabotage the campaign.

The first sign that Jeremy Corbyn did not regard Europe as a priority came in the first week of January when he fired Pat McFadden, his shadow Europe minister. McFadden was one of the canniest MPs in the Commons. But he blotted his copybook with Corbyn by suggesting that the leader was soft on terrorism following the Islamic State attacks in Paris. At the instigation of Hilary Benn, the shadow foreign secretary, McFadden was replaced by another pro-European, Pat Glass. But the loss of McFadden from the front line robbed the Labour In campaign of a doughty warrior who would have been more prepared to go toe-to-toe with the leadership. ‘We lost a very effective media communicator, a very effective campaign strategist in quite a brutal way,’ says a member of Labour In.



All Out War, Tim Shipman wrote:
Corbyn’s, at best, tepid enthusiasm for the EU was mirrored by his key adviser Seumas Milne, a willowy Wykehamist and former comment editor of the Guardian whose columns had led to him being labelled a Stalin apologist who blamed the West for most of the world’s ills. At the newspaper he was known as ‘the Thin Controller’ for his Svengali-like influence. Milne had written as recently as July 2015 that ‘Many progressive people in Britain … are moving towards voting no in the planned in–out referendum in the face of its brutal authoritarianism towards Greece.’ His closest ally was Andrew Fisher, a hard-left activist who had urged people to vote for Class War rather than the Labour Party in the general election. In an interview with Croydon Radio in 2015, Fisher said he was ‘agnostic’ about the EU. Only Corbyn’s then chief of staff Simon Fletcher, a former aide to Ken Livingstone, was a significant pro-EU voice. John McDonnell’s team were also divided. James Meadway, an economic adviser, wrote on the Counterfire website: ‘In our own referendum, on British membership of the EU, the left must vote No.’1

Charlie Falconer, the shadow justice secretary at the time, said Milne was explicitly equivocal about the result of the referendum: ‘Seumas made it clear to me: “If we stay in the European Union then Jeremy will get the credit for having contributed to staying, and if we lose, then the position will be that Jeremy will be known to have been lukewarm about it, will appear to be close to the public. That’s how he sees it.”’ In a similar vein, a member of the shadow cabinet claimed Milne had called this scenario ‘a win–win’.

Alan Johnson believes Milne was the major impediment to a proper working relationship between his campaign and the leadership: ‘The people in his office made life as difficult as they could for people running our campaign. People like Brian Duggan, Patrick Heneghan and Sam Bacon were all frustrated by the leader’s office. They’d tried to get dates in the grid and they didn’t want to know.’ Johnson says the campaign descended into a series of ‘painful episodes’, but throughout it all there was little engagement from Milne. ‘Seumas Milne, he’s head of strategy and he never turned up at a single meeting before the campaign began. I don’t think he turned up to one afterwards either.’ Johnson also wanted Corbyn to campaign on the EU before the local elections in May. ‘Alan multiple times tried to set up a meeting with Jeremy’s office,’ says a source in a position to know the workings of Corbyn’s office, ‘but Seumas basically vetoed it multiple times. He wasn’t interested.’

Early in the campaign Johnson’s team, led by Brian Duggan, drew up a core script for use by Labour politicians which talked about the EU providing prosperity and protections on issues like workplace rights, consumer rights and the environment, and boosting Britain’s role in the world. It was signed off by the campaign, party HQ and Corbyn’s office in the autumn of 2015. A party official says, ‘We’d tested it with focus groups, we’d tested it with Labour voters. The only problem was the leader of the Labour Party, having signed it off, never used it.’
Labour had an important role to play in the campaign, because they could make arguments that were distinct from those of the central Stronger In campaign. ‘Cameron wasn’t going to go heavy on workers’ rights. We could,’ says Alan Johnson. ‘This agenda ought to have appealed to Corbyn; it was at the heart of the “social Europe” agenda mapped out by Jacques Delors which the leader had cited as his reason for supporting Remain.’
But Corbyn, who had no experience of top-level politics until he won the Labour leadership in September 2015, was unable to make this argument compelling or accessible to voters. He talked about the ‘Posted Workers Directive’, which governs workplace rights for those sent abroad within the EU. ‘We did the workers’ rights stuff but we didn’t do it in the right way,’ says Johnson. ‘We didn’t spend enough time talking about the bits in that social dimension that did matter to people, like paid holidays.’

Corbyn’s idiosyncratic approach to leadership, and the apparent hold Milne had over him, were on display when Alan Johnson and Brian Duggan went to see him in February, just before Cameron’s deal, with the shadow home secretary Andy Burnham, to develop a handling plan for the referendum campaign. Hilary Benn’s adviser Imran Ahmed and Seumas Milne were also there. Corbyn opened the meeting by thanking everyone for coming, and then, to the consternation of his visitors, promptly said, ‘Let me go and make some tea.’ One of those present said, ‘He basically spent about ten minutes talking about making tea for us all, and then said, “Alan, talk us through the chronology of what’s about to happen.”’ Johnson ran through the phases of the campaign – the deal, designation, the short campaign – suggesting areas where Corbyn would need to make decisions. At that point Corbyn finished making the tea, looked up and said, ‘Seumas, what do we think?’ The source said, ‘Then Seumas basically gave the leader of the Labour Party’s view back to the room. It was bizarre.’

After the meeting, Brian Duggan sent an email to Milne and the others saying, ‘This is the core script, we’re agreed and signed off,’ and inviting anyone who wished to make comments or changes to do so. He never heard anything more about it.

Instead of following the agreed core script Corbyn, under the influence of John McDonnell, pursued a different agenda, entitled ‘Remain and Reform’, which focused on things they wished to change about the EU. The issue first came to a head in December 2015, when Corbyn visited Brussels to address the Party of European Socialists. Attempts to draw up a section of his speech on Brexit proved divisive. Johnson and Duggan sent over the script, whereupon ‘Seumas got into a huff because his view was that the leader’s office hadn’t had any input and that it didn’t reflect Corbyn’s values,’ according to a source familiar with the discussions. When Corbyn arrived in Brussels he used three slides, the second of which listed all the things that were wrong with the EU, while the third detailed what needed to change. Someone who saw it said, ‘It was a bucket list of shit you don’t like, not an argument for remaining in.’

Alan Johnson asked for the ‘Remain and Reform’ idea to be tested by Labour’s polling experts, and found that it did not work. A Labour official says, ‘We were doing focus groups twice a week, and people would say to us, “We don’t know what that means.”’ Johnson says, ‘The phrase did not resonate at all. If you tell people “Here are all the things that are wrong with the European Union” in the run-up to 23 June, you’re going to get people saying, “Well, if there’s that much wrong with it, I’m going to vote to leave.” My mantra was, “We don’t need to say what’s wrong with the EU, we’ve got the Daily Mail to say that, they do it every day, they’ve been doing it for years.” Yes, you can say the EU isn’t perfect. But you then go on to say what’s right about it.’

Corbyn’s office showed no interest in the research. Johnson concluded that Corbyn and McDonnell deliberately took a different stance because they regarded him, a man who had held five cabinet posts under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, as ideologically unsound: ‘They insisted on Remain and Reform because they don’t like unity. Unity with terrible class traitors like me sullies them. It reduces their intellectual self-esteem. So they have to devise another thing so they’re differentiated from us. That’s the way I rationalise it.’


what do you think of Corbyn calling for Article 50 to be triggered immediately? Is that a Tabloid falsehood?

Quote:
At Labour’s national headquarters on Victoria Street, it had been a surreal evening for supporters of the EU. The campaign staff had fled to Horseferry Road to avoid Seumas Milne. Jeremy Corbyn disappeared at 11 p.m., never to return. Milne, Katy Clark, Kevin Slocombe and Andrew Fisher all descended on Victoria Street. ‘That changed the mood of the whole thing, because you have to be careful about what you’re saying,’ one staff member said. Milne and Simon Fletcher exchanged pleasantries, their first conversation for three weeks.
At around 11 p.m. Katy Clark, Corbyn’s political secretary, was seen talking to Jack Bond, who did the leader’s social media. Bond was upset, and said, ‘What do we do if we lose this?’ Clark was apparently sanguine: ‘It was the right thing to do, because we distinguished ourselves from the capitalist case for leaving, and even if we leave, we’ll be out of that capitalist thing.’ The source who witnessed the conversation said it was ‘an extraordinary thing to say – that happened’. It appeared to confirm that the Corbynistas were unconcerned about a Brexit vote.

After Sunderland ‘the mood was shell-shocked’, but later the atmosphere changed. ‘There was anger towards Corbyn from three or four in the morning.’ Staff were instructed to devise press lines blaming Tory underfunding of Labour areas for the Leave vote.

At about 6 a.m. most of the campaign staff left Ergon House to return to Victoria Street. By then markets in the Far East were in freefall, and the pound was still on the slide. Just before they left, officials from Labour In sought to get hold of Corbyn to tell him what had happened.
‘Where is Jeremy?’ one of them asked.
‘He’s still in bed,’ came the reply.
‘How do we get him up?’
‘I don’t know.’
After nearly a year of being messed around by the leadership, the usually mild-mannered Brian Duggan finally snapped. ‘Are you seriously telling me the markets are crashing, the pound is falling, we’ve just left the European Union, the prime minister is about to resign, and the leader of the opposition is in bed?’


Quote:
When he was finally woken up on the morning after the vote, Jeremy Corbyn found a waiting television camera, and at 7.40 a.m., thirty-five minutes before David Cameron resigned, he declared that the government should immediately trigger Article 50 and begin the process of withdrawing Britain from the European Union: ‘The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now.’ For a man who had professed to want the UK to remain in Europe, this was a curious thing to do when even the Brexiteers wanted to buy time. When he saw what Corbyn had said, Alan Johnson was furious. ‘Come the day and come that result, the one person who was not upset at all was Jeremy. The party was distraught, I mean really distraught. Jeremy wasn’t. And Jeremy’s people weren’t. Jeremy was the only person to have said we should kick off Article 50 immediately. For the party, this was a test for him.’

When the backlash came, Corbyn’s spin doctors first claimed that he had not said it, later that he had misspoken. ‘His own office, his own staff, didn’t know he was going to say that,’ said a source who was in Labour HQ that morning. ‘They all looked up at the screens as he was live on telly and looked at each other in shock.’ Another Labour staffer said, ‘It became abundantly clear from speaking to Andrew Fisher that neither Jeremy, and possibly not him either, actually understood what Article 50 was. Corbyn never understands these things unless you ram it in his thick skull.’

At 6 a.m. Corbyn’s team had sent out some ‘lines to take’ for MPs doing interviews, seeking to make a virtue of the leader’s ambivalence about the EU. They claimed that Labour was ‘far closer to the centre of gravity of the British public than other political parties’, and that Corbyn was ‘uniquely placed’ to represent the nation’s views. If that was not enough of a red rag to backbench bulls, Corbyn’s Article 50 statement eliminated any lingering doubts among his critics that he was unfit to be leader of the opposition. By 9 a.m. a concerted effort was under way to remove him.




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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:06 am 
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Some pieces from the lefties at the time:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36430606
Quote:
Here's the strange thing. Jeremy Corbyn is campaigning to stay in the European Union. In fact nearly all of the Labour Party is.

But if you didn't know that, and you listened to his speech this morning, you would not have left the room with that overwhelming sense.

Mr Corbyn said the Labour message was "loud and clear", that the Conservative Party was a bigger threat to the country than the European Union was, and that whether on workers' rights, the environment, or renewable energy, Britain can achieve more progressive policies working with other countries in the EU than alone.

But as part of his "Remain and Reform" agenda, the Labour leader listed almost as many downsides with the EU as positives.


https://www.rt.com/uk/346614-brexit-cor ... in-labour/
Quote:
Despite Corbyn’s push for remaining in the EU, his attitude to the 28-country bloc has been called into question, with evidence that he is, in fact, skeptical of the body.

Along with voting in favor of leaving the European Economic Community in 1975, Corbyn also voted against the Maastricht Treaty, which formed the EU.


And shortly after:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... r-betrayal
Quote:
This leads to me to the greatest betrayal and the final straw for many MPs. I have been told and shown evidence by an overwhelming number of unimpeachably neutral Labour remain staff that Corbyn’s office, for which he must take full responsibility, consistently attempted to weaken and sabotage the Labour remain campaign, in contravention of the party’s official position. For example, they resisted all polling and focus group evidence on message and tone, raised no campaign finance, failed to engage with the campaign delivery and deliberately weakened and damaged the argument Labour sought to make.

Corbyn made only a smattering of campaign appearances, and they were lacklustre in delivery and critical of the EU in tone resulting in Labour voters not knowing the party’s position or hearing our argument. Corbyn’s infrequent campaign appearances and narrow focus, in turned limited the party’s appeal. He kept saying that the economic shock of Brexit was not real. It is. And it is working people and Labour communities that will pay the price. A price that is being felt right now.

But as well as letting down Labour voters, he has also let down Labour members. Labour is a proud internationalist party and our conference, our members and our unions were clear that Labour should fight a strong Labour campaign to keep Britain in Europe.


You can't blame Corbyn for Brexit, it's the Tories fault and the Tories fallout. You can say, though, that he didn't care to remain...

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"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:41 am 
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@Slasher, This is nonsense. It's basically attacking Jeremy Corbyn for going to bed at midnight and still being in bed at 6am. That's funny.

With regards to Article 50, perhaps he didn't fully understand the consequences of immediately triggering it? For your information Article 50 has now been triggered (not by Jeremy Corbyn) and the world is still turning. Arguing that the vote should be set aside would have been disastrous.

Yog wrote:
You can't blame Corbyn for Brexit, it's the Tories fault and the Tories fallout. You can say, though, that he didn't care to remain...
There are certainly a lot of grievances against the EU among the left, but most people (not all) see the benefit of reforming it from within rather burning it down to the ground. If Brexit had been defeated in the referendum then 'Remain and Reform' would have been seen as having a strong mandate. I presume that was the strategy. Any 'Remain' argument that Corbyn made was being taken by the press and presented it a a reason to 'Leave'.


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:46 am 
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Coles2 wrote:
@Slasher, This is nonsense. It's basically attacking Jeremy Corbyn for going to bed at midnight and still being in bed at 6am. That's funny.

With regards to Article 50, perhaps he didn't fully understand the consequences of immediately triggering it? For your information Article 50 has now been triggered (not by Jeremy Corbyn) and the world is still turning.

Yog wrote:
You can't blame Corbyn for Brexit, it's the Tories fault and the Tories fallout. You can say, though, that he didn't care to remain...
There are certainly a lot of grievances against the EU among the left, but most people (not all) see the benefit of reforming it from within rather burning it down to the ground. If Brexit had been defeated in the referendum then 'Remain and Reform' would have been seen as having a strong mandate. I presume that was the strategy. Any 'Remain' argument that Corbyn made was being taken by the press and presented it a a reason to 'Leave'.


Yeah, imagine the greatest political upheaval in a generation and the leader of the Opposition is in bed!!

If Leo V/M Martin did that you'd have plenty to say.

I know article 50 has been triggered. The clock is ticking and the UK hasn't decided on its future relationships l with the EU. Imagine if it had been done a year prior like Corbyn demanded!

Do you stand by your assertions that Corbyn campaigned whole heartedly for Bremain? Or are you rowing back on it?


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:51 am 
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slasher wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
@Slasher, This is nonsense. It's basically attacking Jeremy Corbyn for going to bed at midnight and still being in bed at 6am. That's funny.


Yeah, imagine the greatest political upheaval in a generation and the leader of the Opposition is in bed!!

If Leo V/M Martin did that you'd have plenty to say.
If they were in the same bed? Ok, yes, you got me there.


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:56 am 
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Coles2 wrote:
slasher wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
@Slasher, This is nonsense. It's basically attacking Jeremy Corbyn for going to bed at midnight and still being in bed at 6am. That's funny.


Yeah, imagine the greatest political upheaval in a generation and the leader of the Opposition is in bed!!

If Leo V/M Martin did that you'd have plenty to say.
If they were in the same bed? Ok, yes, you got me there.

Diverting from the Corbyn mess with a homophobic joke? Classy


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:14 pm 
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You don't understand what homophobia is, right?

homophobic
ˌhɒməˈfəʊbɪk,ˌhəʊməˈfəʊbɪk/
adjective
adjective: homophobic

having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
"homophobic remarks"


The joke is funny (if it is funny?) regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of anyone, but you get points for faux-outrage and twisted knickers....


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:08 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
You don't understand what homophobia is, right?

homophobic
ˌhɒməˈfəʊbɪk,ˌhəʊməˈfəʊbɪk/
adjective
adjective: homophobic

having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
"homophobic remarks"


The joke is funny (if it is funny?) regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of anyone, but you get points for faux-outrage and twisted knickers....



It's a real sign of weakness that you are going down this path instead of being mature enough to acknowledge that Corbyn failed to provide any sort of leadership to the Labour Remain campaign (and thereby provoked a leadership challenge) and thereby contributed to the fucking of the British Working Class


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:32 pm 
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slasher wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
You don't understand what homophobia is, right?

homophobic
ˌhɒməˈfəʊbɪk,ˌhəʊməˈfəʊbɪk/
adjective
adjective: homophobic

having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
"homophobic remarks"


The joke is funny (if it is funny?) regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of anyone, but you get points for faux-outrage and twisted knickers....



It's a real sign of weakness that you are going down this path instead of being mature enough to acknowledge that Corbyn failed to provide any sort of leadership to the Labour Remain campaign (and thereby provoked a leadership challenge) and thereby contributed to the fucking of the British Working Class


The British Working Class is very much capable of screwing themselves, as is evident for example by looking at the Brexit vote result demographics.


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn + UK GE 17
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:59 pm 
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slasher wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
slasher wrote:
UK Productivity has been very poor for a long time and is a significant part of the reason for poor wage growth. What does Corbyn propose to address this?

His conduct during the Brexit campaign was appalling, not the most competitive and productive UK industry is borked as a result (he was in bed while the country was in turmoil)

Shipman's book "All out War" is a great read; obviously Cameron et al come out poorly but Corbyn and MacDonald do too

The Tories called the BREXIT referendum, not Corbyn, so it's amusing to see people try to blame him for it.

The continuous assaults on Corbyn by the Murdock press that were so eagerly lapped up around here, but still Corbyn campaigned more and more effectively against Brexit than any other politician, and you know what? It's ironic that all the assaults on Corbyn actually meant that that balanced media outlets couldn't report on his campaigning in order to maintain balance. The mixed messages of the Tories squabbling and scaremongering got reported but not the real debates and discussions that happened through out the UK.

This is worth reading from the London School of Economics. Deals with a lot of the tabloid falsehoods.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/08/1 ... -campaign/


so you haven't read the book?
that bit underlined is simply a lie worthy of the Murdock [sic] press. Corbyn's heart was never in campaigning to remain

Do you think Alan Johnson [Labour stalworth] is telling the truth below? Jack Straw? Corbyn the cretin even proposed that Cameron trigger Article 50 right away. Do you deny that?

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/313 ... ll-out-war

All Out War, Tim Shipman wrote:
Clearing a grid was one thing; getting Labour high command to do anything useful with the time set aside for them was another. Peter Mandelson rang Tom Watson and Iain McNicol, the general secretary of the party, to tell them of the dire situation and to ask them to pull out all the stops, promising that the campaign would fight to secure them air time and would provide any resources and back-up they needed. Both Watson and McNicol made it clear that the leader’s office was the obstacle to anything happening, and that Seumas Milne, Corbyn’s director of strategy and communications, and all-purpose panjandrum, was blocking effective campaigning by going over campaign materials and scripts with an unhelpful fine-tooth comb. They said they would do all they could, but without Corbyn’s or shadow chancellor John McDonnell’s support (which neither expected) there was a limit to what they could do. Straw says, ‘All of us were absolutely clear about the need to get Labour into the debate. We had no trust in the leadership to deliver it, so we had to deliver it ourselves.’ Cameron agreed to stand aside from an event at de Montfort University in Leicester, but all efforts to get Jeremy Corbyn to take his place failed. ‘We spent the entire weekend trying to get Jeremy to go to that event, and he basically just refused hands-down,’ says a Labour source. ‘Tom Watson was ringing him, Ed Miliband was ringing him.’ Eventually Gordon Brown was lined up instead.

The situation was all too familiar to the Labour people at Stronger In, senior officials in party headquarters and those around Alan Johnson, who was running the Labour In for Britain campaign. For months Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne had engaged in a policy of non-cooperation and obstructionism that convinced many leading Remain campaigners and Labour frontbenchers that, at best, they did not care if Stronger In won the referendum, or at worst – a sentiment that grew towards polling day – that they actively sought to sabotage the campaign.

The first sign that Jeremy Corbyn did not regard Europe as a priority came in the first week of January when he fired Pat McFadden, his shadow Europe minister. McFadden was one of the canniest MPs in the Commons. But he blotted his copybook with Corbyn by suggesting that the leader was soft on terrorism following the Islamic State attacks in Paris. At the instigation of Hilary Benn, the shadow foreign secretary, McFadden was replaced by another pro-European, Pat Glass. But the loss of McFadden from the front line robbed the Labour In campaign of a doughty warrior who would have been more prepared to go toe-to-toe with the leadership. ‘We lost a very effective media communicator, a very effective campaign strategist in quite a brutal way,’ says a member of Labour In.



All Out War, Tim Shipman wrote:
Corbyn’s, at best, tepid enthusiasm for the EU was mirrored by his key adviser Seumas Milne, a willowy Wykehamist and former comment editor of the Guardian whose columns had led to him being labelled a Stalin apologist who blamed the West for most of the world’s ills. At the newspaper he was known as ‘the Thin Controller’ for his Svengali-like influence. Milne had written as recently as July 2015 that ‘Many progressive people in Britain … are moving towards voting no in the planned in–out referendum in the face of its brutal authoritarianism towards Greece.’ His closest ally was Andrew Fisher, a hard-left activist who had urged people to vote for Class War rather than the Labour Party in the general election. In an interview with Croydon Radio in 2015, Fisher said he was ‘agnostic’ about the EU. Only Corbyn’s then chief of staff Simon Fletcher, a former aide to Ken Livingstone, was a significant pro-EU voice. John McDonnell’s team were also divided. James Meadway, an economic adviser, wrote on the Counterfire website: ‘In our own referendum, on British membership of the EU, the left must vote No.’1

Charlie Falconer, the shadow justice secretary at the time, said Milne was explicitly equivocal about the result of the referendum: ‘Seumas made it clear to me: “If we stay in the European Union then Jeremy will get the credit for having contributed to staying, and if we lose, then the position will be that Jeremy will be known to have been lukewarm about it, will appear to be close to the public. That’s how he sees it.”’ In a similar vein, a member of the shadow cabinet claimed Milne had called this scenario ‘a win–win’.

Alan Johnson believes Milne was the major impediment to a proper working relationship between his campaign and the leadership: ‘The people in his office made life as difficult as they could for people running our campaign. People like Brian Duggan, Patrick Heneghan and Sam Bacon were all frustrated by the leader’s office. They’d tried to get dates in the grid and they didn’t want to know.’ Johnson says the campaign descended into a series of ‘painful episodes’, but throughout it all there was little engagement from Milne. ‘Seumas Milne, he’s head of strategy and he never turned up at a single meeting before the campaign began. I don’t think he turned up to one afterwards either.’ Johnson also wanted Corbyn to campaign on the EU before the local elections in May. ‘Alan multiple times tried to set up a meeting with Jeremy’s office,’ says a source in a position to know the workings of Corbyn’s office, ‘but Seumas basically vetoed it multiple times. He wasn’t interested.’

Early in the campaign Johnson’s team, led by Brian Duggan, drew up a core script for use by Labour politicians which talked about the EU providing prosperity and protections on issues like workplace rights, consumer rights and the environment, and boosting Britain’s role in the world. It was signed off by the campaign, party HQ and Corbyn’s office in the autumn of 2015. A party official says, ‘We’d tested it with focus groups, we’d tested it with Labour voters. The only problem was the leader of the Labour Party, having signed it off, never used it.’
Labour had an important role to play in the campaign, because they could make arguments that were distinct from those of the central Stronger In campaign. ‘Cameron wasn’t going to go heavy on workers’ rights. We could,’ says Alan Johnson. ‘This agenda ought to have appealed to Corbyn; it was at the heart of the “social Europe” agenda mapped out by Jacques Delors which the leader had cited as his reason for supporting Remain.’
But Corbyn, who had no experience of top-level politics until he won the Labour leadership in September 2015, was unable to make this argument compelling or accessible to voters. He talked about the ‘Posted Workers Directive’, which governs workplace rights for those sent abroad within the EU. ‘We did the workers’ rights stuff but we didn’t do it in the right way,’ says Johnson. ‘We didn’t spend enough time talking about the bits in that social dimension that did matter to people, like paid holidays.’

Corbyn’s idiosyncratic approach to leadership, and the apparent hold Milne had over him, were on display when Alan Johnson and Brian Duggan went to see him in February, just before Cameron’s deal, with the shadow home secretary Andy Burnham, to develop a handling plan for the referendum campaign. Hilary Benn’s adviser Imran Ahmed and Seumas Milne were also there. Corbyn opened the meeting by thanking everyone for coming, and then, to the consternation of his visitors, promptly said, ‘Let me go and make some tea.’ One of those present said, ‘He basically spent about ten minutes talking about making tea for us all, and then said, “Alan, talk us through the chronology of what’s about to happen.”’ Johnson ran through the phases of the campaign – the deal, designation, the short campaign – suggesting areas where Corbyn would need to make decisions. At that point Corbyn finished making the tea, looked up and said, ‘Seumas, what do we think?’ The source said, ‘Then Seumas basically gave the leader of the Labour Party’s view back to the room. It was bizarre.’

After the meeting, Brian Duggan sent an email to Milne and the others saying, ‘This is the core script, we’re agreed and signed off,’ and inviting anyone who wished to make comments or changes to do so. He never heard anything more about it.

Instead of following the agreed core script Corbyn, under the influence of John McDonnell, pursued a different agenda, entitled ‘Remain and Reform’, which focused on things they wished to change about the EU. The issue first came to a head in December 2015, when Corbyn visited Brussels to address the Party of European Socialists. Attempts to draw up a section of his speech on Brexit proved divisive. Johnson and Duggan sent over the script, whereupon ‘Seumas got into a huff because his view was that the leader’s office hadn’t had any input and that it didn’t reflect Corbyn’s values,’ according to a source familiar with the discussions. When Corbyn arrived in Brussels he used three slides, the second of which listed all the things that were wrong with the EU, while the third detailed what needed to change. Someone who saw it said, ‘It was a bucket list of shit you don’t like, not an argument for remaining in.’

Alan Johnson asked for the ‘Remain and Reform’ idea to be tested by Labour’s polling experts, and found that it did not work. A Labour official says, ‘We were doing focus groups twice a week, and people would say to us, “We don’t know what that means.”’ Johnson says, ‘The phrase did not resonate at all. If you tell people “Here are all the things that are wrong with the European Union” in the run-up to 23 June, you’re going to get people saying, “Well, if there’s that much wrong with it, I’m going to vote to leave.” My mantra was, “We don’t need to say what’s wrong with the EU, we’ve got the Daily Mail to say that, they do it every day, they’ve been doing it for years.” Yes, you can say the EU isn’t perfect. But you then go on to say what’s right about it.’

Corbyn’s office showed no interest in the research. Johnson concluded that Corbyn and McDonnell deliberately took a different stance because they regarded him, a man who had held five cabinet posts under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, as ideologically unsound: ‘They insisted on Remain and Reform because they don’t like unity. Unity with terrible class traitors like me sullies them. It reduces their intellectual self-esteem. So they have to devise another thing so they’re differentiated from us. That’s the way I rationalise it.’


what do you think of Corbyn calling for Article 50 to be triggered immediately? Is that a Tabloid falsehood?

Quote:
At Labour’s national headquarters on Victoria Street, it had been a surreal evening for supporters of the EU. The campaign staff had fled to Horseferry Road to avoid Seumas Milne. Jeremy Corbyn disappeared at 11 p.m., never to return. Milne, Katy Clark, Kevin Slocombe and Andrew Fisher all descended on Victoria Street. ‘That changed the mood of the whole thing, because you have to be careful about what you’re saying,’ one staff member said. Milne and Simon Fletcher exchanged pleasantries, their first conversation for three weeks.
At around 11 p.m. Katy Clark, Corbyn’s political secretary, was seen talking to Jack Bond, who did the leader’s social media. Bond was upset, and said, ‘What do we do if we lose this?’ Clark was apparently sanguine: ‘It was the right thing to do, because we distinguished ourselves from the capitalist case for leaving, and even if we leave, we’ll be out of that capitalist thing.’ The source who witnessed the conversation said it was ‘an extraordinary thing to say – that happened’. It appeared to confirm that the Corbynistas were unconcerned about a Brexit vote.

After Sunderland ‘the mood was shell-shocked’, but later the atmosphere changed. ‘There was anger towards Corbyn from three or four in the morning.’ Staff were instructed to devise press lines blaming Tory underfunding of Labour areas for the Leave vote.

At about 6 a.m. most of the campaign staff left Ergon House to return to Victoria Street. By then markets in the Far East were in freefall, and the pound was still on the slide. Just before they left, officials from Labour In sought to get hold of Corbyn to tell him what had happened.
‘Where is Jeremy?’ one of them asked.
‘He’s still in bed,’ came the reply.
‘How do we get him up?’
‘I don’t know.’
After nearly a year of being messed around by the leadership, the usually mild-mannered Brian Duggan finally snapped. ‘Are you seriously telling me the markets are crashing, the pound is falling, we’ve just left the European Union, the prime minister is about to resign, and the leader of the opposition is in bed?’


Quote:
When he was finally woken up on the morning after the vote, Jeremy Corbyn found a waiting television camera, and at 7.40 a.m., thirty-five minutes before David Cameron resigned, he declared that the government should immediately trigger Article 50 and begin the process of withdrawing Britain from the European Union: ‘The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now.’ For a man who had professed to want the UK to remain in Europe, this was a curious thing to do when even the Brexiteers wanted to buy time. When he saw what Corbyn had said, Alan Johnson was furious. ‘Come the day and come that result, the one person who was not upset at all was Jeremy. The party was distraught, I mean really distraught. Jeremy wasn’t. And Jeremy’s people weren’t. Jeremy was the only person to have said we should kick off Article 50 immediately. For the party, this was a test for him.’

When the backlash came, Corbyn’s spin doctors first claimed that he had not said it, later that he had misspoken. ‘His own office, his own staff, didn’t know he was going to say that,’ said a source who was in Labour HQ that morning. ‘They all looked up at the screens as he was live on telly and looked at each other in shock.’ Another Labour staffer said, ‘It became abundantly clear from speaking to Andrew Fisher that neither Jeremy, and possibly not him either, actually understood what Article 50 was. Corbyn never understands these things unless you ram it in his thick skull.’

At 6 a.m. Corbyn’s team had sent out some ‘lines to take’ for MPs doing interviews, seeking to make a virtue of the leader’s ambivalence about the EU. They claimed that Labour was ‘far closer to the centre of gravity of the British public than other political parties’, and that Corbyn was ‘uniquely placed’ to represent the nation’s views. If that was not enough of a red rag to backbench bulls, Corbyn’s Article 50 statement eliminated any lingering doubts among his critics that he was unfit to be leader of the opposition. By 9 a.m. a concerted effort was under way to remove him.




I don't think there's any doubt that Corbyn was lukewarm on the EU. His campaigning was lukewarm. I saw him say as much at a Townhall type meeting near the time of the referendum 'It's corporatist, I don't really like it, but there are some good things, on balance it's better to be in'.

Looking at the points above from the book.

1. So Mandelson has Tim Shipman's ear. Everyone know's Mandelson is a creep. An ex EU commissioner who sees no wrong with it.
2. Seumus Milne was going over things to make sure there was no corporatist crap. This is right and proper. Why would anyone trust Mandelson's copy?
3. Alan Johnson failed in the Referendum and will never be Labour leader. This contributes to his spite.
4. that's a "sentiment". But its unsupported
Pat McFadden slagged Corbyn in the House for daring to suggest that Western Actions contribute to Terror attacks. That's a bit more than blotting your copybook. Would Blair ahve put up with a serving minster slagging him?
5. https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyashton/he ... .xbgDEMlEv
6. 'Willowy' ? WTF has that to do with anything
7 'Stalin apologist' seems like repeating a smear
https://www.telesurtv.net/english/opini ... -0024.html
8. How dare Milne object to how Greece was treated ! OMG !
9. Charlie Falconer would be Lord Falconer of New Labour...that Charlie Falconer

It's a little ironic that Milne is described as "stalinist" for not being 'on message' in New Labourites whitewashing of the EU's corporatist agenda


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:03 pm 
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Posts: 240
A Venezuelan propaganda channel suggests that Suemas Milne is not a Stalin apologist, citing an article from Sputnik News? With these comedy references, you are spoiling us!


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn + UK GE 17
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:01 am 
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Posts: 1994
GameBlame wrote:
3. Alan Johnson failed in the Referendum and will never be Labour leader. This contributes to his spite.


He has at least two chances to become Labour leader and both times backed away, he seems to not want the job, which is a pity, I think he could beat the Tories easy but Corbyn my struggle to win a majority

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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:54 pm 
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Oh dear. The Tory attempt to smear Jeremy Corbyn as a traitor has come badly unstuck.

4 minutes long. Well worth watching.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05ywy1h

The Tories and the tabloids are waging war against the people and the sooner the people say 'enough!' and start fighting back the better.


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Joined: Jul 9, 2008
Posts: 1216
Location: In the Sandpit.
Coles2 wrote:
Oh dear. The Tory attempt to smear Jeremy Corbyn as a traitor has come badly unstuck.

4 minutes long. Well worth watching.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05ywy1h

The Tories and the tabloids are waging war against the people and the sooner the people say 'enough!' and start fighting back the better.

A true WTF moment in British politics. Completely self inflicted as well, the Tories led on by the Daily Wail, et al. Talk of betrayal and traitors can and will backfire and if not used responsibly.
Whats the worst that Corbyn is going to do? Nationalise the fucking railways? "Next stop, Lubyanka!"
And yet the bloody Russians are the ones that pushed on Brexit.
The whole thing is bonkers.


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 Post subject: Re: Je suis Corbyn (+UK GE 17) For The Many not the few
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Jul 9, 2008
Posts: 1216
Location: In the Sandpit.
london_irish wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
Oh dear. The Tory attempt to smear Jeremy Corbyn as a traitor has come badly unstuck.

4 minutes long. Well worth watching.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05ywy1h

The Tories and the tabloids are waging war against the people and the sooner the people say 'enough!' and start fighting back the better.

A true WTF moment in British politics. Completely self inflicted as well, the Tories led on by the Daily Wail, et al. Talk of betrayal and traitors can and will backfire and if not used responsibly.
Whats the worst that Corbyn is going to do? Nationalise the fucking railways? Oh my god!
And yet the bloody Russians are the ones that pushed on Brexit.
The whole thing is bonkers.


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