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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:06 pm 
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satechi wrote:
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I am a primary school teacher, teaching in Blanchardstown, Dublin 15. I finished a four-year teaching degree and graduated in 2011. On the day I started teaching in September 2011, I was discriminated against, simply because of my age. I love my job, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to come to terms with the fact that, over our careers, the teacher in the next room will earn over €100,000 more than me.

In 2010 the Government cut the pay for public servants by an average of 14pc. On top of that, the pay of every new entrant teacher was cut by a further 14pc. We were told this was part of the measures agreed when the government accepted the troika bailout for the banks. The new entrants pay cut was imposed as a budget measure.


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http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/going-to-college/on-a-teachers-wage-i-may-never-be-able-to-afford-a-mortgage-34523000.html


It begins XX the spiral of demands for ever higher wages.

She should be happy she has a stable job with clear promotion levels and bonuses and a freaking pension, I would kill for both in my area of IT :(


If the life of a teacher is so attractive why didn't you train as one yourself? There is nothing to stop you from doing so not. You can qualify part time easily so why don't you?

Most of the comments on this thread are from people with no no knowledge of public sector working conditions and based on perceptions of perks which no longer exist.

For instance you say that teachers have a promotion system. This us untrue. There have been no promotions in most parts if the public sector have been non existent since the crisis. Posts of responsibility which were the first promotion opportunity for teachers no longer attract any additional pay.

As for pensions my own father lost his entire pension when his employer went bust so I am well aware of the perils of private pensions. But public sector pensions were cut twice during the bust so these are not immune to cuts as many people believe. Also everyone employed in the public sector since 1995 pays full prsi for the old age pension and then thus is topped up from their pension. scheme to 50% of final salary. This means that most public sector workers get 20 or 30 percent final salary pensions for contributions of between 10 and 15 per cent if salary. The deal for new entrants is even worse because they get a career average pension.

I am a public servant and if I could I woukd I would contract out if my pension because I have no faith whatsoever that I will ever receive it.


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:29 pm 
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mocame wrote:
satechi wrote:
Quote:
I am a primary school teacher, teaching in Blanchardstown, Dublin 15. I finished a four-year teaching degree and graduated in 2011. On the day I started teaching in September 2011, I was discriminated against, simply because of my age. I love my job, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to come to terms with the fact that, over our careers, the teacher in the next room will earn over €100,000 more than me.

In 2010 the Government cut the pay for public servants by an average of 14pc. On top of that, the pay of every new entrant teacher was cut by a further 14pc. We were told this was part of the measures agreed when the government accepted the troika bailout for the banks. The new entrants pay cut was imposed as a budget measure.


Code:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/going-to-college/on-a-teachers-wage-i-may-never-be-able-to-afford-a-mortgage-34523000.html


It begins XX the spiral of demands for ever higher wages.

She should be happy she has a stable job with clear promotion levels and bonuses and a freaking pension, I would kill for both in my area of IT :(


If the life of a teacher is so attractive why didn't you train as one yourself? There is nothing to stop you from doing so not. You can qualify part time easily so why don't you?

Most of the comments on this thread are from people with no no knowledge of public sector working conditions and based on perceptions of perks which no longer exist.

For instance you say that teachers have a promotion system. This us untrue. There have been no promotions in most parts if the public sector have been non existent since the crisis. Posts of responsibility which were the first promotion opportunity for teachers no longer attract any additional pay.

As for pensions my own father lost his entire pension when his employer went bust so I am well aware of the perils of private pensions. But public sector pensions were cut twice during the bust so these are not immune to cuts as many people believe. Also everyone employed in the public sector since 1995 pays full prsi for the old age pension and then thus is topped up from their pension. scheme to 50% of final salary. This means that most public sector workers get 20 or 30 percent final salary pensions for contributions of between 10 and 15 per cent if salary. The deal for new entrants is even worse because they get a career average pension.

I am a public servant and if I could I woukd I would contract out if my pension because I have no faith whatsoever that I will ever receive it.


I honestly wish I had become a teacher.
If I had done a four year degree + dip I'd have finished in 2004.
I'd have done maths + science since that's where my strengths lie.
I would have gotten honours in both the dip and degree.
In reality I did engineering (useless for teaching) and got honours so that's pretty close.

I would have started in say 2006 on point 3 of the salary scale. That allows for a little faffing with job finding but I believe maths teachers have it a little easier.

So I'd be on 43612 + 1236 + 4981 = 49829
More then I currently earn in the private sector and with things like paid maternity leave, pension, job security.

I don't think I've ever out earned what I would have as a teacher, even working as a civil engineer in the boom.


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:43 pm 
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The media like to use simple cartoons or social caricatures. Remember you are to be treated like a child.

What is not a joke however, are the luxuriously long seasonal holiday periods for many educational folk compared to their British or European equivalents and by virtue are not really a comparable to most the existing workforce even other state and semi0state employees for that matter.

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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:48 am 
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mocame wrote:
If the life of a teacher is so attractive why didn't you train as one yourself? There is nothing to stop you from doing so not. You can qualify part time easily so why don't you?


In hindsight, good question, where do I signup? Gardai sounds great too...

Feel like i wasted the last decade and dont even have a pension to show for it... As for job certaintinty, shiiiiiit.... ... i could be unemployed tomorrow and wouldn't get the full dole for wasting my time starting a company :( (and paying all the taxes and some more)


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:00 am 
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satechi wrote:
mocame wrote:
If the life of a teacher is so attractive why didn't you train as one yourself? There is nothing to stop you from doing so not. You can qualify part time easily so why don't you?


In hindsight, good question, where do I signup? Gardai sounds great too...

Feel like i wasted the last decade and dont even have a pension to show for it... As for job certaintinty, shiiiiiit.... ... i could be unemployed tomorrow and wouldn't get the full dole for wasting my time starting a company :( (and paying all the taxes and some more)


Simple, the idea of never leaving school! WTF! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:12 am 
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It is funny how the grass is always greener on the other side. I am a lifetime public servant (an academic) and now regret my decision to seek an academic career. Frankly in my case the sacrifices have not been worth it. I spend my 20s in higher education (degree+masters+PhD), out of the workforce and surviving on a pittance when my friends could afford holidays and cars. During that time and the many years afterwards I spent on short term contracts I was not eligible to pay into a pension. I am not having to 'buy back' those missing years on top of my current pension contributions (40 years contributions are required for a full pension and I am ten years short).

The competition to secure an academic post in my field is fierce. I finally secured my first permanent job at 35 having worked an absolute minimum of 50 hours per week for the previous decade. After securing permanency I could of course have cut back my hours as some of my colleagues do but the competition for promotion is equally fierce and I am ambitious and have kept up that pace of work. But my ambitions have been undermined by the recession and also government decisions which impact on my life greatly as a public servant such as in my case the decision to buy votes from the middle classes by capping/abolishing university fees. As a result I have had no opportunity for promotion since 2007 while I see colleagues in universities abroad progressing in their careers mine is going no where. I take home 15 percent less than I did in 2008 and have ne expectation I will ever get my pay rate restored.

I don't want to appear to whinge too much because I enjoy lots of aspects of my job a and Several of my extended family work in construction and as I mentioned above my dad lost his pension when his employer went bust in the 1989s so I am well, well aware of the insecurities of work in the private sector. But benchmarking myself against my peers who work as private sector professionals I earn significantly less.

In my view teaching particularly primary teaching - if you get a permanent contract - is still a very attractive job In view of the very long pay scale and high pay at the top of the scale and the holidays. The constant whinging from the teachers unions drives me mad and gives public servants a bad name. For low skilled people and time servers the public service is very attractive. The administrators in my university earn very good salaries for what they do -30 - 50k for no responsibility, no qualifications required and a very short working week (37 hours). Hour per hour over their working life they earn far more than me because they didn't spend so long out of the workforce qualifying for their jobs.

However my honest assessment is the public service is not an attractive employer for anyone with ambition who wants to progress in their career and for most professionals and this in my opinion is a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:38 am 
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I wonder if the older teachers pay was cut, would this young teacher be happy. Problem solved. Or is the case that house prices and rents get ramped with the full support of the govt. Leading to pay claims. But once the bubble unwinds how dare they cut the pay of the young teachers.

In other words it's an example of a wider malaise, the symptoms are treated but not the underlying illness - the ramping of accomodation costs with the full encouragement of noonan, the ecb QE and so on.


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:50 am 
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the liquidator wrote:
I wonder if the older teachers pay was cut, would this young teacher be happy. Problem solved. Or is the case that house prices and rents get ramped with the full support of the govt. Leading to pay claims. But once the bubble unwinds how dare they cut the pay of the young teachers.

In other words it's an example of a wider malaise, the symptoms are treated but not the underlying illness - the ramping of accomodation costs with the full encouragement of noonan, the ecb QE and so on.

And to a large extent, those who own houses. Don't misunderestimate the votes in high house prices...

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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:57 am 
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An ignorant post skippy.

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The real damage is done by those millions who want to 'get by'. The ordinary men who just want to be left in peace. Those who don’t want their lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with no sides and no causes. Those who won’t take measure of their own strength, for fear of antagonizing their own weakness. Those people who roll up their spirits into tiny little balls so as to be safe. Safe?! From what?
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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:09 am 
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I'm with Mocame . Grass is always greener and all that.

I'm an engineer and earn roughly the same as my wife, excluding mileage and bonuses I receive. If I got double take home pay than what I'm on now I might, might, consider teaching. And I'm not lying.

Don't underestimate how much less regarded teachers are today by parents and kids alike than they were a couple of decades ago. I've posted on some of her experiences in other threads so won't repeat myself. The reward is very much helping the kids out and not the pay in the case of my wife. There are chancers in the too though and I feel for the poor kids that hey them. Good teachers are not rewarded over bad and ladder climbing for self interest exists aplenty too. This hasn't been weeded out in the "reform" so I don't hold out much hope of any radical changes there.

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The real damage is done by those millions who want to 'get by'. The ordinary men who just want to be left in peace. Those who don’t want their lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with no sides and no causes. Those who won’t take measure of their own strength, for fear of antagonizing their own weakness. Those people who roll up their spirits into tiny little balls so as to be safe. Safe?! From what?
Sophie Scholl


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:16 am 
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U


Last edited by Tyrion3000 on Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:37 am 
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Tyrion3000 wrote:
Dubhgeannain wrote:
I'm with Mocame . Grass is always greener and all that.

I'm an engineer and earn roughly the same as my wife, excluding mileage and bonuses I receive. If I got double take home pay than what I'm on now I might, might, consider teaching. And I'm not lying.

Don't underestimate how much less regarded teachers are today by parents and kids alike than they were a couple of decades ago. I've posted on some of her experiences in other threads so won't repeat myself. The reward is very much helping the kids out and not the pay in the case of my wife. There are chancers in the too though and I feel for the poor kids that hey them. Good teachers are not rewarded over bad and ladder climbing for self interest exists aplenty too. This hasn't been weeded out in the "reform" so I don't hold out much hope of any radical changes there.


+1 million. used to be like a lot of others on this thread, but having been married to a secondary school teacher a few years now I wouldnt swap even though Im getting paid less and have standard private sector holidays. You are not just expected to teach you are expected to be a social worker too and with online bullying etc there is more crap to deal with the ever. As Dubhgeannain said above there are coasting chancers who make life tougher for everyone else but unlike in Private sector jobs it is next to impossible to weed them out once they are permanent.
You are also expected by management (and parents) to give up quite bit of time outside school hours for extra curricular stuff/parent teacher meetings etc.
And of course the younger generation getting absolutely fked over but its hardly unique to teaching TBF


While those are valid issues, to me those are very different issues to salary and require very different approaches and solutions.
Doubling (or even just increasing) teachers pay isn't going to solve any of that, and to be honest probably won't make the job any more attractive to those who don't want to do it.

Better pastoral support in schools, increased funding for sports, a reform of the school management structure and a reform of the whole subbing/part time/pathway to a permanent job system would do more to improve teaching conditions then a salary increase but all we ever hear about is salary.

The salary is fine. There are dozens of other issues to be solved but not only does the union not work towards solving those, they seem to actively obstruct some initiatives that could made a difference.


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:52 pm 
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mocame wrote:
It is funny how the grass is always greener on the other side.

Are the salaries of third level academia overseas that much higher than Ireland?
See profile of salaries at Indiana university below:
https://www.glassdoor.ie/Salary/Indiana ... irect=true


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:52 pm 
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I think most people working in the private sector for large firms know in their heart of hearts that the claim that the private sector 'weeds out' the deadwood (in a way that the public sector does not) is nonsense. We have all seen slackers and useless coworkers who not only haven't been fired but have been promoted out of their domain of incompetence to a level where they are even more incompetent.

I have relatives who are extremely senior people in very large Irish and UK companies. They pull down salaries in the mid six figures. And they are complete idiots: rote learners who haven't a clue about anything beyond the parts of their jobs they've learned to do. Their main qualification seems to be an extreme willingness to suck up to those above them and to take punishment when it comes raining down upon them. One of them (a regional manager for a UK multinational) proudly showed me a postcard he'd been instructed to post to himself from an executive retreat. It had little guidelines on it like: 'Don't always go for the most obvious answer.' And this guy makes well over £200,000 per annum, gets a new expensive German company car ever 3 years, etc.

So I think we all know that this business about how the private sector always and everywhere weeds out incompetence is nothing more than a myth.

The problem will always be that managers are often incapable of judging. And this becomes more difficult in areas like those in the public sector where there are no clear metrics: how will you determine who is a "bad teacher"? Any metric you choose will be fraught and have too many other variables.


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:04 pm 
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podge wrote:
mocame wrote:
It is funny how the grass is always greener on the other side.

Are the salaries of third level academia overseas that much higher than Ireland?
See profile of salaries at Indiana university below:
https://www.glassdoor.ie/Salary/Indiana ... irect=true


It's an international problem. Employment in academia is completely f'd up.
Basically the universities encourage lots of people to do PhDs because they're a great source of cheap labour and research grants for the university. They attract people because historically it was a reasonable option and society as a whole backs the idea of higher and higher levels of achievement. There's an idea that surely the highest level is a good idea since all the other levels were.

The reality is it's a pyramid scheme and everyone wants into the higher levels so there are far too many applicants for far too few jobs and the universities do nothing to provide basic things like job security, promotion paths or even decent wages. Why would they when they can just take on four gullible PhD students instead?

As a student I would always have assumed that my lecturers vastly out earned my secondary school and primary school teachers. That's very much not the case. In general the salary is lower with a much shorter pay scale.


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