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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:28 pm 
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jehosephat wrote:
I think most people working in the private sector for large firms know in their heart of hearts that the claim that the private sector 'weeds out' the deadwood (in a way that the public sector does not) is nonsense. We have all seen slackers and useless coworkers who not only haven't been fired but have been promoted out of their domain of incompetence to a level where they are even more incompetent.


Absolutely -- the large banks are a perfect example of this. And it was, of course, the vaunted private sector that completely blew itself to smithereens, requiring State bailout.
As I said earlier, this teacher is shouldering the cheque of the idiot bankers and their cohorts.... And to add to the insult she's being paid far less than the management of AIB and BOI.

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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:54 pm 
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jehosephat wrote:
I think most people working in the private sector for large firms know in their heart of hearts that the claim that the private sector 'weeds out' the deadwood (in a way that the public sector does not) is nonsense. We have all seen slackers and useless coworkers who not only haven't been fired but have been promoted out of their domain of incompetence to a level where they are even more incompetent.

Depends on the management. If the management is immersed in the ethos of the multi-national then deadweight are managed out. if they put Irish managers in there then it can be as bad as any indigienous business.


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:22 am 
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Daniel Plainview wrote:
jehosephat wrote:
I think most people working in the private sector for large firms know in their heart of hearts that the claim that the private sector 'weeds out' the deadwood (in a way that the public sector does not) is nonsense. We have all seen slackers and useless coworkers who not only haven't been fired but have been promoted out of their domain of incompetence to a level where they are even more incompetent.


Absolutely -- the large banks are a perfect example of this. And it was, of course, the vaunted private sector that completely blew itself to smithereens, requiring State bailout.
As I said earlier, this teacher is shouldering the cheque of the idiot bankers and their cohorts.... And to add to the insult she's being paid far less than the management of AIB and BOI.


Actually, the banks going bust was a prime example of the system working fine. Well run companies will either weed out incompetent workers/management or the company will run itself into the ground and the market will take care of it.

The system being bailed out is a different issue - it isn't capitalism, it's a socialism issue.

Edit - it's actually a good example of why public sector businesses should be privatised.

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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:59 am 
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jehosephat wrote:
I think most people working in the private sector for large firms know in their heart of hearts that the claim that the private sector 'weeds out' the deadwood (in a way that the public sector does not) is nonsense. We have all seen slackers and useless coworkers who not only haven't been fired but have been promoted out of their domain of incompetence to a level where they are even more incompetent.

I have relatives who are extremely senior people in very large Irish and UK companies. They pull down salaries in the mid six figures. And they are complete idiots: rote learners who haven't a clue about anything beyond the parts of their jobs they've learned to do. Their main qualification seems to be an extreme willingness to suck up to those above them and to take punishment when it comes raining down upon them. One of them (a regional manager for a UK multinational) proudly showed me a postcard he'd been instructed to post to himself from an executive retreat. It had little guidelines on it like: 'Don't always go for the most obvious answer.' And this guy makes well over £200,000 per annum, gets a new expensive German company car ever 3 years, etc.

So I think we all know that this business about how the private sector always and everywhere weeds out incompetence is nothing more than a myth.

The problem will always be that managers are often incapable of judging. And this becomes more difficult in areas like those in the public sector where there are no clear metrics: how will you determine who is a "bad teacher"? Any metric you choose will be fraught and have too many other variables.


I disagree with you here. I know plenty of well regarded managers who don't set the world on fire, and who couldn't run a small company for example, but do very well because they blindly follow corporate policy and execute it without thinking, or at least always check they don't stray outside the lines of policy. Some of these don't even know fully what their teams do. They are not brilliant managers, but they are not useless and weak either - they are drones in their own way, who are doing exactly what the company wants them do, and thinking in whatever bland way the company expects and trains them to do.

As another poster said too, big corporations do manage out the weak. My company does like redundancy so they force people to move out of teams they're no longer needed in and into boring roles where they can do mindless work, and get steady meets expectations ratings without getting a solitary raise over 5 years, or leave. They may even cut pay in moving across departments. Some get below expectation ratings and end up on a pip. Another low rating and you're let go, no redundancy. General people are sat on and other pick up the slack and try to mentor them into competence in their role. So that they can get flat ratings with no raises.

Just because some isn't walking around canning people willy nilly doesn't mean that poor performance isn't being monitored and weeded out. Someone has to do boring stuff and there are plenty of confused people who can't be put in front of clients etc but can be managed into a role that's more comfortable for them and where the company gets some value over time by their salary reducing in real terms. Many of these bored people feel hard done by getting no raises and leave, win win


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:21 pm 
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podge wrote:
mocame wrote:
It is funny how the grass is always greener on the other side.

Are the salaries of third level academia overseas that much higher than Ireland?
See profile of salaries at Indiana university below:
https://www.glassdoor.ie/Salary/Indiana ... irect=true


In my experience the headline salaries of Irish academics compare okay with those abroad. The Iveagh League obviously pays well above the average and salaries for professors in the UK are negotiable some people negotiate super packages others in less saleable disciples have less leverage. Salaries for professors in my field in Ireland are higher than their counterparts in the UK but there are far fewer professorial posts in Ireland and you really have to be at the top of your field to secure one. The salary you quote for an assistant professor in as US state university is similar to the top of the scale for the equivalent post in Ireland (assistant lecturer sometimes called lecturer below the bar).

I am stuck in Ireland for family reasons and obviously the cost of living in Ireland that impacts on me so to be honest the pay of my counterparts abroad is not a big consideration for me you'll notice if you read my post I compared my pay to my counterparts in the private sector and for me that means Dublin specifically. The biggest problem in public sector pay is the lack of a Dublin weighting on salaries. In my experience for private sector professionals Dublin based jobs do pay more. Whereas I earn the same as my counterpart in Limerick but face much higher housing costs. If the struggling teacher living in Blanchardstown someone mentioned above was living in Carrick on Shannon she would have a great standard of living. I see no reason for increasing the pay of teachers or nurses in Leitrim when there is no problem filling posts there. The problem is that public sector pay increases (or cuts indeed) are applied uniformly across the country irrespective of the location of the employee or the problems in recruiting that particular specialism. In my view pay setting should be devolved. Let the head of the Mater Hospital pay whatever necessary to recruit a nurse (within their budget) and let the head of Monaghan hospital pay whatever necessary etc.

The comments regarding management of underperformance in big companies are very interesting. I guess in any big organisation whether public or private sector I can be easier to work around poor performers rather than deal with them. The difference in the public sector is great managers have no tools to reward excellent performance. Certainly in my are no promotions are available and everyone progresses up the pay scale by breathing in and out all year irrespective of ability. In the end this crushes the drive of the High performers in my experience and it has to end. I don't buy the idea that it is difficult to assess performance in the public sector. Any manager who is doing their job should be able to see who is working hard and who isn't. If the performance of for instance an actuary or an accountant in an insurance company can be assessed why can't the performance of a social worker or teacher?

The other key problem which I imagine doesn't exist in the private sector is that public sector employees are loath to take action against gross underperformance. Most of my colleagues work hard and a substantial minority are workaholics and I have come across very few cases of gross negligence in my career but in all the cases I have seen employers and managers have been loath to take action. This is because the guilty party is often enabled to engage in 'upward bullying' by for instance putting in a bullying complaint against the manager who stands up to them or claiming stress related illnesses and trade unions collude in this. Also the courts almost always award costs against public sector employers no matter how dreadful the behaviour of the employee has been.


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:24 pm 
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Interesting post mocame.

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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:07 pm 
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Daniel Plainview wrote:
the liquidator wrote:
Daniel Plainview wrote:
muirgheasa wrote:
By the way - why is it "entitlement" when younger people want something, whereas older people looking for something (eg pensioners marching against cuts to the pension that they haven't even almost paid for) aren't described in those terms?

tl;dr Ah yes, the auld "back in my day I worked 48 hours a day in the mines, and ate dirt when I was hungry. Young people don't know they're born!" culture is alive and thriving as strong as I have ever seen it in Ireland.


Exactly ---- it's the generations of 50yrs old plus who ran up the massive debt load ---- it certainly wasn't this girl or her contemporaries.
The bailout and NAMA etc. were to save the asses of the vaunted generations, and the cheque was dropped on the young. They write a letter about it and suddenly the right wing spoons come rattling out of the drawer.


Mmmm. It works two ways here. Ireland by all accounts got out of hand and needed to wind down it's costs and how much it was paying itself. Her salary got cut, and her cost base should be lower for many items. As there is no inflation remember? She whines about the income cut, but we never hear of the costs going down/deflation etc. That mentality is part of the problem.


avoiding the deflation of assets was expressly the point of the bank bailout and NAMA; so she hasn't encountered the cheaper assets that she should have; and to make it worse she's been lumped with the bill for keeping the value of the assets inflated; so I disagree that it "works two ways" -- it works the way the status quo and property owners want it to work.


Exactly!


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:16 pm 
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The type of people who support Trump in the USA are out in force on this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:58 pm 
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conork wrote:
Actually, the banks going bust was a prime example of the system working fine. Well run companies will either weed out incompetent workers/management or the company will run itself into the ground and the market will take care of it.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:02 pm 
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nn


Last edited by Tyrion3000 on Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:44 pm 
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Daniel Plainview wrote:
conork wrote:
Actually, the banks going bust was a prime example of the system working fine. Well run companies will either weed out incompetent workers/management or the company will run itself into the ground and the market will take care of it.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Don't like the uncomfortable truths eh Daniel, post up a few smiley faces and keep playing your violin looking for the sympathy vote.

I suppose the entire public sector deserves a pay rise because our bond yields are so low.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Irving Fisher, economist, October 17, 1929 - "Stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau"
Gold and Economic Freedom by Alan Greenspan - 1966
Milton Friedman best moments


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:40 pm 
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conork wrote:
Daniel Plainview wrote:
conork wrote:
Actually, the banks going bust was a prime example of the system working fine. Well run companies will either weed out incompetent workers/management or the company will run itself into the ground and the market will take care of it.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Don't like the uncomfortable truths eh Daniel, post up a few smiley faces and keep playing your violin looking for the sympathy vote.

I suppose the entire public sector deserves a pay rise because our bond yields are so low.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8- 8-

Don't be a fool. Nobody thinks the banks getting out of control to the point that they did; lending with such reckless abandon that, as they were feeding the biggest property bubble in economic history, they were also endangering the entire economic sovereignty of the State; was, as you hilariously put it "a prime example of the system working fine".

You're just married to your adolescent Randian based theories, and you stick your head in the sand to protect them, popping up every once in awhile to squawk something utterly inane like "the market will take care of it".

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Profits = Investment – Household Savings – Government Savings – Foreign Savings + Dividends

(i.e. company profits are directly fed, in part, by government deficits)

BANKS DON'T LEND RESERVES
As confirmed by the Bank of England


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:54 pm 
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Daniel Plainview wrote:
Don't be a fool. Nobody thinks the banks getting out of control to the point that they did ... was, as you hilariously put it "a prime example of the system working fine".

I've no iron in this fire, but to be fair to the poster, you're egregiously misquoting him.

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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:06 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
Daniel Plainview wrote:
Don't be a fool. Nobody thinks the banks getting out of control to the point that they did ... was, as you hilariously put it "a prime example of the system working fine".

I've no iron in this fire, but to be fair to the poster, you're egregiously misquoting him.


conork wrote:
Actually, the banks going bust was a prime example of the system working fine.


disagree -- you can't separate the banks going bust from what they did to make themselves go bust, they're one and the same thing;
the banks should never have been allowed to become the reckless mess that they were in the size that they were -- and they're an example of why Randian free market, anti regulation, nonsense like this should be shouted down at every opportunity.

saying all that, this is an important point being communicated by this young teacher, so I won't distract from the original subject of the thread again

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Profits = Investment – Household Savings – Government Savings – Foreign Savings + Dividends

(i.e. company profits are directly fed, in part, by government deficits)

BANKS DON'T LEND RESERVES
As confirmed by the Bank of England


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 Post subject: Re: On a teachers wage, I may never be able to afford a mort
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:48 am 
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conork wrote:
Actually, the banks going bust was a prime example of the system working fine. Well run companies will either weed out incompetent workers/management or the company will run itself into the ground and the market will take care of it.

The system being bailed out is a different issue - it isn't capitalism, it's a socialism issue.

Edit - it's actually a good example of why public sector businesses should be privatised.


So, if a company is poorly run (and by this standard, most if not all banks were poorly run; absent various local and international bailouts and other assistance, the whole system would have collapsed), then it should just go to the wall, no matter how essential? Realistically, companies collapse all the time, whole sectors come close to collapse from time to time (see the dot-com bubble collapse, for instance, or the shambles that is the remains of the Irish construction industry). This is how it goes in the world of business (certainly in poorly regulated spruces; the deregulation of the banking industry was a mistake). I'd prefer to see essential services provided by something a little more robust.

If anything, this sounds like an argument for state-run high street banks; realistically, if the independent ones fail due to their own incompetence the state will rescue them anyway, so why not cut out the middleman?


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