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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:48 am 
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In the same way that Catholic doctrine has changed since Nietzsche's time so has typical atheism. You would associate current atheism with post-Christian liberal scientific rational thinkers, who would tend not to be racist.

I think Friedrich's ramblings about phrenology serve the point that he is not a modern atheist in the way Pope Nick is not a modern Catholic. Why point to either of them ?

A Catholic Racist party would be seeking to wear the Catholic label as a badge. But would of course be incoherent.

An Atheist Racist party seeking to wear Atheism as a badge while pointing to 19th century science would be incoherent


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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:56 am 
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Jeeze.. we have just had another Brexit moment yesterday and you guys are talking about some crazy german horse hugging writer of literature philosophe. It looks like the French presidential election will be between a hard line traditional Gaullist and very hard line neo-Gaullist. French politics has just swung hard line nationalist.

Oh yeah, and the UK may soon have 15% corp tax.

It seems like 2016 = 1989 is looking pretty good by this stage. And six weeks still to go. Whats next. Dec 4 in Italy is looking good. Either way, end of status quo. I wonder are we going to have our Ceausescu in front of a firing squad moment before the year runs out. That happened on Christmas Day in '89. That video certainly made my Christmas complete that year. Nominations please...

I'd nominate Martin Schulz. If only on the principle of pour encourager les autres.

As for Ireland. Expect a FF/SF government sooner rather than later. Which will be your nationalist anti-immigration parties together at last in government.

Happy now.


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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:26 pm 
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jmc wrote:
Jeeze.. we have just had another Brexit moment yesterday and you guys are talking about some crazy german horse hugging writer of literature philosophe. It looks like the French presidential election will be between a hard line traditional Gaullist and very hard line neo-Gaullist. French politics has just swung hard line nationalist.


Fillon or Juppe are no radicals and they are not much of a nationalist. Sarcozy attempted a shift to the anti immigration only to utterly fail. It will be interesting to see of Le Pen can be defeated in the runoff. Id imagine she will get closer than before

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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:43 pm 
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werpen wrote:
jmc wrote:
Jeeze.. we have just had another Brexit moment yesterday and you guys are talking about some crazy german horse hugging writer of literature philosophe. It looks like the French presidential election will be between a hard line traditional Gaullist and very hard line neo-Gaullist. French politics has just swung hard line nationalist.


Fillon or Juppe are no radicals and they are not much of a nationalist. Sarcozy attempted a shift to the anti immigration only to utterly fail. It will be interesting to see of Le Pen can be defeated in the runoff. Id imagine she will get closer than before


Have you read any of Juppes or Fillons recent interviews?

Juppe is pure business as usually. A safe pair of hands. Fillon is a un-apologetic radical economic and social reformer, much more so than Sarkozy, who in his recent book nailed his colours to the mast about crushing radical Islam in France. I see little empty space between Fillon and Sarko on the fiche S people and the use of the state to destroy radical Islam. Either lock them up, deport them, or kill them when they show the slightest resistance.

Sarko lost because so many PS and FN voters voted in the primary. The PS hate Sarko and the FN knew he was the only candidate could seriously challenge Le Pen. So those 15%/20% of the votes were all anti-Sarko. Without them it would be Fillon v Sarko in the second round. With Juppe a poor third.

Le Pen is the one to beat. Unlike the last time around Le Pen *is* the working class candidate. Fillon can only win if enough middle class PS voters vote for him in the second round. Which will be far less likely than with the case of The Crook rather than the Fascist.

So dont be too surprised if this time next year we have Le Pen in France, the new age fascist Grillo in Italy, and a compete and total SPD non entity like Gabriel in Germany. Sweden has done just fine the last few years being run by a social democratic party non entity. So a bright future awaits us all under German moral / political leadership.


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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:25 pm 
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jmc wrote:

As for Ireland. Expect a FF/SF government sooner rather than later. Which will be your nationalist anti-immigration parties together at last in government.


SF, despite polls showing it's supporters are the most anti-immigration in Ireland, are essentially an open borders party.
FF, while having no principles other than getting elected, were in charge when over 10,000 'asylum seekers' a year were trooping into Ireland, with very few ever sent home despite the high refusal rates. They also gave full labour market access to the Eastern European countries in 2004 when they joined the EU.

Anti-immigration :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:40 pm 
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jmc wrote:
werpen wrote:
jmc wrote:
Jeeze.. we have just had another Brexit moment yesterday and you guys are talking about some crazy german horse hugging writer of literature philosophe. It looks like the French presidential election will be between a hard line traditional Gaullist and very hard line neo-Gaullist. French politics has just swung hard line nationalist.


Fillon or Juppe are no radicals and they are not much of a nationalist. Sarcozy attempted a shift to the anti immigration only to utterly fail. It will be interesting to see of Le Pen can be defeated in the runoff. Id imagine she will get closer than before


Have you read any of Juppes or Fillons recent interviews?

Juppe is pure business as usually. A safe pair of hands. Fillon is a un-apologetic radical economic and social reformer, much more so than Sarkozy, who in his recent book nailed his colours to the mast about crushing radical Islam in France. I see little empty space between Fillon and Sarko on the fiche S people and the use of the state to destroy radical Islam. Either lock them up, deport them,


Thats just common sense

Quote:
or kill them when they show the slightest resistance.



Without any evidence id very much doubt that

Quote:
Sarko lost because so many PS and FN voters voted in the primary. The PS hate Sarko and the FN knew he was the only candidate could seriously challenge Le Pen.


Everyone hates Sarco
Hillary would even beat him


Quote:
So dont be too surprised if this time next year we have Le Pen in France, the new age fascist Grillo in Italy, and a compete and total SPD non entity like Gabriel in Germany. Sweden has done just fine the last few years being run by a social democratic party non entity. So a bright future awaits us all under German moral / political leadership.


It wouldnt be a great surprise however the SP and Left Party are unlikely to break to LePen

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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:31 pm 
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werpen wrote:

Thats just common sense

Quote:
or kill them when they show the slightest resistance.



Without any evidence id very much doubt that

[quote]

Again, do you follow French domestic news? The slightest resistance to a SDAT raid will get an extremely violent response. There have been quite a few a shot / injured while resisting arrest in the last year. The salafaists have learned by this stage it is not a good idea. Unless you want to die. The guy with the fake suicide vest (as it turned out) outside the police station in Paris was instructive. Simple warning, no response, shot in head. All over very quickly. No negotiation. Nothing. And not a squeak out of Liberation the following day. Just reported it matter of factly.

We live in a very very different France now. A President Le Pen is very plausible. An it now seems very likely.


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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:48 pm 
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jmc wrote:
The guy with the fake suicide vest (as it turned out) outside the police station in Paris was instructive. Simple warning, no response, shot in head. All over very quickly. No negotiation. Nothing. And not a squeak out of Liberation the following day. Just reported it matter of factly.

We live in a very very different France now. A President Le Pen is very plausible. An it now seems very likely.

That's a little misleading. Reports had him approaching a police station wearing what looked like a suicide vest, waving a butchers knife and paper Isis flag and shouting Allahu Akbar on the exact anniversary of the Charlie Hebdo killings.

What else were they supposed to do, throw croissants at him?

Hardly evidence in itself of a lean to the far right.

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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:34 pm 
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FreeFallin wrote:
jmc wrote:

As for Ireland. Expect a FF/SF government sooner rather than later. Which will be your nationalist anti-immigration parties together at last in government.


SF, despite polls showing it's supporters are the most anti-immigration in Ireland, are essentially an open borders party.
FF, while having no principles other than getting elected, were in charge when over 10,000 'asylum seekers' a year were trooping into Ireland, with very few ever sent home despite the high refusal rates. They also gave full labour market access to the Eastern European countries in 2004 when they joined the EU.

Anti-immigration :roll:


+1 can Jmc admit Fianna Fáil are not anti immigration ? Maybe they were when he was a child who knows ? Maybe all the evidence suggests they are pro immigration but jmc knows their innermost desires, De Valera style ?

Aside - it would be interesting to note how many toupe wearing FF cumann members own language schools


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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:32 pm 
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jmc wrote:
werpen wrote:

Thats just common sense

Quote:
or kill them when they show the slightest resistance.



Without any evidence id very much doubt that

Quote:

Again, do you follow French domestic news? The slightest resistance to a SDAT raid will get an extremely violent response. There have been quite a few a shot / injured while resisting arrest in the last year. The salafaists have learned by this stage it is not a good idea. Unless you want to die. The guy with the fake suicide vest (as it turned out) outside the police station in Paris was instructive. Simple warning, no response, shot in head. All over very quickly. No negotiation. Nothing. And not a squeak out of Liberation the following day. Just reported it matter of factly.

We live in a very very different France now. A President Le Pen is very plausible. An it now seems very likely.


I asked for evidence of Fillon views but i see there are not forthcoming
From what my french friends tell me of fillon is he is less of an absolutionist in terms of islam, i dont think he even buying into the banning of head scarf nonsense. He appears to be much more of a catholic conservative than many french leaders.

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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:39 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
jmc wrote:
The guy with the fake suicide vest (as it turned out) outside the police station in Paris was instructive. Simple warning, no response, shot in head. All over very quickly. No negotiation. Nothing. And not a squeak out of Liberation the following day. Just reported it matter of factly.

We live in a very very different France now. A President Le Pen is very plausible. An it now seems very likely.

That's a little misleading. Reports had him approaching a police station wearing what looked like a suicide vest, waving a butchers knife and paper Isis flag and shouting Allahu Akbar on the exact anniversary of the Charlie Hebdo killings.

What else were they supposed to do, throw croissants at him?

Hardly evidence in itself of a lean to the far right.


That is not what was reported in the *French* media at the time. The anglophone media reports were very garbled.


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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:51 pm 
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werpen wrote:
jmc wrote:
werpen wrote:

Thats just common sense

Quote:
or kill them when they show the slightest resistance.



Without any evidence id very much doubt that

Quote:

Again, do you follow French domestic news? The slightest resistance to a SDAT raid will get an extremely violent response. There have been quite a few a shot / injured while resisting arrest in the last year. The salafaists have learned by this stage it is not a good idea. Unless you want to die. The guy with the fake suicide vest (as it turned out) outside the police station in Paris was instructive. Simple warning, no response, shot in head. All over very quickly. No negotiation. Nothing. And not a squeak out of Liberation the following day. Just reported it matter of factly.

We live in a very very different France now. A President Le Pen is very plausible. An it now seems very likely.


I asked for evidence of Fillon views but i see there are not forthcoming
From what my french friends tell me of fillon is he is less of an absolutionist in terms of islam, i dont think he even buying into the banning of head scarf nonsense. He appears to be much more of a catholic conservative than many french leaders.


Read any of the interviews in the *French* media the last few months? The LR presidential candidate knock about has been a big story for the last few months. Some attempt has been made to cover the PS candidate jockeying with some attention but its a losing battle considering how irrelevant they are for the second round. Sometimes the anglophone media does cover a bit more than the big events but rarely covers the day to day stuff. Which is were all the fine details are.

If you want evidence trying reading the stories in Le Figaro, Le Point, L'Express and Liberation the last month or so. They go into forensic detail. Or even watch the debate. It should be easy to find on the TF1 site. If you want your "evidence" in anglophone media you are not going to find it. It would be a bit like trying to find nuanced coverage of Irish politics in the US media. Not going to happen.


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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:14 pm 
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GameBlame wrote:
FreeFallin wrote:
jmc wrote:

As for Ireland. Expect a FF/SF government sooner rather than later. Which will be your nationalist anti-immigration parties together at last in government.


SF, despite polls showing it's supporters are the most anti-immigration in Ireland, are essentially an open borders party.
FF, while having no principles other than getting elected, were in charge when over 10,000 'asylum seekers' a year were trooping into Ireland, with very few ever sent home despite the high refusal rates. They also gave full labour market access to the Eastern European countries in 2004 when they joined the EU.

Anti-immigration :roll:


+1 can Jmc admit Fianna Fáil are not anti immigration ? Maybe they were when he was a child who knows ? Maybe all the evidence suggests they are pro immigration but jmc knows their innermost desires, De Valera style ?

Aside - it would be interesting to note how many toupe wearing FF cumann members own language schools


That is now but if the worst case scenario happens, which I sincerely hope does not, FF will return to their nativist roots. Remember, I've been told repeated since the mid 90's that its all different now, it a whole new country, very different from the '70's and '80's but come 2016 what do I find, fuck all difference in voting patterns. Or the electorate. Despite crashing the country yet again FF are on course to become the largest party again and SF's nationalist socialism is now acceptable mainstream politics. SF may have their Mary Lou's as beards to hide behind, but the old beards of the 1980's still run the show.

As long as times are good the recent incomers are welcome, but only up to a point. But a return to the 1980's let alone the 1950's economically, add in a fractured EU, and all bets are off. I dont know which Ireland you know but the one I have known almost 50 years by this stage, which ranges from the most cosmopolitan and salubrious parts of the urban area, to the most deep country and traditional part of the rural areas have shown a remarkable continuity in both attitudes and outlook. Both good and bad.

Ireland still does not have a strong civic culture. A string sense of civic responsibility. It is that lack of civic culture that makes me so worried for the future. In the 90's especially I was willing to suspend disbelief for a while and believe that the country was changing. Had changed. After the last ten years, Nah. Its still the same old place.

I can only hope to be pleasantly surprised by what happens next. That I am wrong. Which I hope I am. But I am planning on being prepared for when things go very wrong. Which I'm afraid they will.

Which in the case of a serious EU/Eurozone political crisis will most likely be a FF/SF unity government. A FF/FG unity government would be better for the country. But given the evidence of the horse trading and rampant cute hoorism of the most recent coalition negotiations , thats not going to happen. If it did not happen in WW2 its not going to happen now. So SF it is.


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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:05 pm 
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Actually despite FGs statements things have not really been good since 2009 and are not that good now for a lot of people. Yet still no FF nativist rhetoric. They still have lots of elected reps- go on google as hard as you can and find me all the FF nativism expressed since 2009 ?

When you start ascribing to an Eoghan Harris analysis it kinda shows you up as the dinosaur.


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 Post subject: Re: New nationalist, anti-immigration party launches in Irel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:26 pm 
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Read any of the interviews in the *French* media the last few months? The LR presidential candidate knock about has been a big story for the last few months. Some attempt has been made to cover the PS candidate jockeying with some attention but its a losing battle considering how irrelevant they are for the second round. Sometimes the anglophone media does cover a bit more than the big events but rarely covers the day to day stuff. Which is were all the fine details are.

If you want evidence trying reading the stories in Le Figaro, Le Point, L'Express and Liberation the last month or so. They go into forensic detail. Or even watch the debate. It should be easy to find on the TF1 site. If you want your "evidence" in anglophone media you are not going to find it. It would be a bit like trying to find nuanced coverage of Irish politics in the US media. Not going to happen.[/quote]


No. I still can't find any. Im not going to listen to another political snore debate but again I haven't see or heard anything from fillon remotely hard right on immigration etc. Certainly to the hard right economical and very conservative. He's a bit of a non entity but may win the nomination but hes no Sarkozy or Le Pen.

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