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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Mantissa wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
On the other hand I don't think it much matters, as the Sisters of Charity is unlikely to exist very much longer in this neck of the woods.


True but presumably they will pass their assets on to a similarly-minded organisation, or as a last resort the Catholic Church.

Why is that a "but"? What else would you want/expect? I already know of several new catholic initiatives benefitting from wind downs of old orders. They are mostly focused on catering to educational needs of Catholics, as general society no longer wants their help.

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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Mantissa wrote:

True but presumably they will pass their assets on to a similarly-minded organisation, or as a last resort the Catholic Church.


There is really no such thing, at least from a balance sheet perspective.

There are multiple catholic organisations with complex sets of fealty to both each other and to Rome.

The Sisters of Charity are dying out in Ireland but will presumably be populated from other parts of the world in due course.


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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:21 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
Mantissa wrote:

True but presumably they will pass their assets on to a similarly-minded organisation, or as a last resort the Catholic Church.


There is really no such thing, at least from a balance sheet perspective.

There are multiple catholic organisations with complex sets of fealty to both each other and to Rome.

The Archdiocese. Not that it matters really. The point is it'll stay in religious control.

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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:27 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
The point is it'll stay in religious control.

The point is it'll stay in private ownership. That was still a constitutional guarantee last time I checked.

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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:15 am 
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ps200306 wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
The point is it'll stay in religious control.

The point is it'll stay in private ownership. That was still a constitutional guarantee last time I checked.

No quite the contrary. There is explicit provision for the State to take ownership of religious property as long as it's for good cause and the owner is compensated (Article 44.2.6).

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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:50 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
The point is it'll stay in religious control.

The point is it'll stay in private ownership. That was still a constitutional guarantee last time I checked.

No quite the contrary. There is explicit provision for the State to take ownership of religious property as long as it's for good cause and the owner is compensated (Article 44.2.6).

My copy says "necessary works of public utility", not "good cause". As to the intended meaning, it's the normal sense of a CPO according to the 1997 Constitutional Review. The review group referred to the 1922 Constitution which is more explicit in saying that the State will not "divert from any religious denomination or any educational institution any of its property except for the purpose of roads, railways, lighting, water or drainage works or other works of public utility, and on payment of compensation". So unless they plan to plough a motorway through it, or build a new airport so the Sisters can jet off to retirement in the Bahamas, it's theirs for keeps.

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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:40 am 
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I guess it depends on how the Supreme Court interprets public utility.

Anyway we digress.

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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 10:40 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
I guess it depends on how the Supreme Court interprets public utility.

Anyway we digress.

And what the Irish translates as; it may translate as both. No?

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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:31 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
The point is it'll stay in religious control.

The point is it'll stay in private ownership. That was still a constitutional guarantee last time I checked.

No quite the contrary. There is explicit provision for the State to take ownership of religious property as long as it's for good cause and the owner is compensated (Article 44.2.6).

My copy says "necessary works of public utility", not "good cause". As to the intended meaning, it's the normal sense of a CPO according to the 1997 Constitutional Review. The review group referred to the 1922 Constitution which is more explicit in saying that the State will not "divert from any religious denomination or any educational institution any of its property except for the purpose of roads, railways, lighting, water or drainage works or other works of public utility, and on payment of compensation". So unless they plan to plough a motorway through it, or build a new airport so the Sisters can jet off to retirement in the Bahamas, it's theirs for keeps.


For the purposes of a public health hospital, I think arguably, it could be considered an essential public utility. Of course, it depends on how you interpret the care of pregnant women which as we know a lot of religious inclined are less focused on the woman but more on the child she may give birth to. First class care of women has not been a core focus hitherto on the part of many nuns. Hence the fact that many people are up in arms. Colocation matters so potentially you might suggest another site, one which will not involved a religious order being enriched by the Irish state again.

I have no objection to them potentially owning the hospital provided they are compelled by law to permit abortions and any other procedures not currently considered but which may be legal at any point in the future without any interference on the part of the nuns or any other religious authority.

What an Bunreacht says:
"ní cead maoin aon aicme creidimh ná aon
fhundúireachtaí oideachais a bhaint díobh ach
amháin le haghaidh oibreacha riachtanacha chun
áise poiblí, agus sin tar éis cúiteamh a íoc leo"

áis is convenience or utility. You could if you want interpret the relevant phrase as works necessary for public convenience. Either way IANAL but that seems to me not to preclude the compulsory purchase of the site. YMMV.


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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:32 pm 
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I want to know how having an adult hospital co-located is useful if the adult hospital self-limits what services it can provide to the woman?

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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:02 pm 
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Calina wrote:
You could if you want interpret the relevant phrase as works necessary for public convenience.


So they could flatten the place to build a urinal?

:-GC

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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:24 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
I want to know how having an adult hospital co-located is useful if the adult hospital self-limits what services it can provide to the woman?


My guess is there is a certain amount of naive assuming the self limiting wouldn't be happening.


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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:37 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
I want to know how having an adult hospital co-located is useful if the adult hospital self-limits what services it can provide to the woman?


Right now the women get shuttled down to Vincent's anyway. At least this way they'd not be separating the women and babies. It will also reduce the time to get women things like vascular surgeons when needed.

But yeah, Vincent's has a bigger problem already. Some shocking stories that I don't really want to post.

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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 11:42 am 
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The story that keeps on giving:

Quote:
The Sisters of Charity are to end their involvement in St Vincent’s Healthcare Group (SVHG) and will have no involvement in the new national maternity hospital on its campus, the Catholic religious order has said

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ ... 9?mode=amp

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 Post subject: Re: New National Maternity Hospital
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Will this new charity have a catholic ethos a la Edmund Rice Trust? AKA a fudge.


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