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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:13 pm 
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onioneater wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
You're completely confused as to what has been going on in the State since its foundation.

onioneater wrote:
I agree that political parties, right and left, are sub cultures/tribes to an extent and such type of statements that you may have heard on Joe Duffy (I don't listen to that show) would have indeed been ridiculous. I would totally favour members of all parties calling a spade a spade in such circumstances although you have to allow some leeway for loyalty.


What you missed out on on Joe Duffy was listening to FG members reaction to getting a tiny 2 week taste of what republicans always got for 80 years +. Sustained Condemnation of their actions, their motives, their principles, broadcasting ban etc. etc. And they responded in a small way like republicans have to - by returning to their principles. In FG members case the bottom line is 'we founded this state, we stood up for it against terrorists and crooks in Fianna Fáil etc'

In Republicans case the bottom line is 'your condemnation is all very well and you can label Republicans murderers if it makes you feel better. But if you think that England and its hirelings and its proxy bigots are sort of benevolent force for good in Ireland then you are not really worth listening to'

Quote:
However you will see that in most normal political parties there are disagreements on policies, leadership elections and other issues which sometimes result in huge public rows and splits. Also you have people within the same party often expressing quite different opinions on economic or social issues.


The amount of public dirty laundry washing in FF is really limited too. In any case, if there had been multiple 'wings' to SF then it would only have weakened their negotiating position with the British. Any wings have split away. Maybe more will in future, who knows.

Quote:
I have to hand it to them they are the best organised and perhaps the smartest political operators/revolutionary unit in the country but I call it a cult, its all about the cult of the attainment of a United Ireland by any means possible, with or without consent. Thats the prize they never cease from keeping paramount in anything that they do. Others may call them something else. Hopefully some day they will turn into something else.


You can call them what you want. I think I was probably right with the Eoghan Harris reference. You probably started off your own political journey with Democratic Left or WP. God knows where you call home now. Given SF constantly acknowledge 'consent' only you know how they don't really.


Okay so you seem to be another of these persons who labels anyone questioning Republican spin as an Eoghan Harrisite, a Unionist, or a defender of bigots. What nonsense.

And for your information, although I am interested in politics and history, I have never been a member or supporter of any political party, anyone who does so has somewhat of a closed mind or tribalist mindset in my view, whereas I prefer to remain independent of thought. And for a start if I was considering a political allegiance I would have more cop-on than to align myself with the feeble analysis of any groupings such as DL or WP with their childish Republican/Communist origins and world views.


It just doesn't seem like there's any blue water between your analysis and Eoghan Harris....so...and while you say you're questioning spin...you're spinning with your own personal insights on Sinn Fein's real views on consent.

It's good to know you don't support bigotry though. It's just you seem to much prefer typing out condemnation of republicans more than bigots. You're still silent on whether you think the British State is a benevolent paternalistic civilising actor over Ireland ? If you don't think their actions are consistently malevolent then that's ok, but you should acknowledge that's emotional not rational thinking.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Joined: Aug 30, 2015
Posts: 464
GameBlame wrote:
onioneater wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
You're completely confused as to what has been going on in the State since its foundation.

onioneater wrote:
I agree that political parties, right and left, are sub cultures/tribes to an extent and such type of statements that you may have heard on Joe Duffy (I don't listen to that show) would have indeed been ridiculous. I would totally favour members of all parties calling a spade a spade in such circumstances although you have to allow some leeway for loyalty.


What you missed out on on Joe Duffy was listening to FG members reaction to getting a tiny 2 week taste of what republicans always got for 80 years +. Sustained Condemnation of their actions, their motives, their principles, broadcasting ban etc. etc. And they responded in a small way like republicans have to - by returning to their principles. In FG members case the bottom line is 'we founded this state, we stood up for it against terrorists and crooks in Fianna Fáil etc'

In Republicans case the bottom line is 'your condemnation is all very well and you can label Republicans murderers if it makes you feel better. But if you think that England and its hirelings and its proxy bigots are sort of benevolent force for good in Ireland then you are not really worth listening to'

Quote:
However you will see that in most normal political parties there are disagreements on policies, leadership elections and other issues which sometimes result in huge public rows and splits. Also you have people within the same party often expressing quite different opinions on economic or social issues.


The amount of public dirty laundry washing in FF is really limited too. In any case, if there had been multiple 'wings' to SF then it would only have weakened their negotiating position with the British. Any wings have split away. Maybe more will in future, who knows.

Quote:
I have to hand it to them they are the best organised and perhaps the smartest political operators/revolutionary unit in the country but I call it a cult, its all about the cult of the attainment of a United Ireland by any means possible, with or without consent. Thats the prize they never cease from keeping paramount in anything that they do. Others may call them something else. Hopefully some day they will turn into something else.


You can call them what you want. I think I was probably right with the Eoghan Harris reference. You probably started off your own political journey with Democratic Left or WP. God knows where you call home now. Given SF constantly acknowledge 'consent' only you know how they don't really.


Okay so you seem to be another of these persons who labels anyone questioning Republican spin as an Eoghan Harrisite, a Unionist, or a defender of bigots. What nonsense.

And for your information, although I am interested in politics and history, I have never been a member or supporter of any political party, anyone who does so has somewhat of a closed mind or tribalist mindset in my view, whereas I prefer to remain independent of thought. And for a start if I was considering a political allegiance I would have more cop-on than to align myself with the feeble analysis of any groupings such as DL or WP with their childish Republican/Communist origins and world views.


It just doesn't seem like there's any blue water between your analysis and Eoghan Harris....so...and while you say you're questioning spin...you're spinning with your own personal insights on Sinn Fein's real views on consent.

It's good to know you don't support bigotry though. It's just you seem to much prefer typing out condemnation of republicans more than bigots. You're still silent on whether you think the British State is a benevolent paternalistic civilising actor over Ireland ? If you don't think their actions are consistently malevolent then that's ok, but you should acknowledge that's emotional not rational thinking.


Put it this way, if I had been born into the Unionist tribe in NI I would hope that I would be on forum up there expressing my opposition to those Unionist parties born out of bigotry and violence and who remain unapologetic about it.

But as it happened I was born into the nationalist tribe in the South so here I am opposing parties from that tribe born out of bigotry and violence since they are highly relevant as they want my vote and want to come to power here. If people in SF were apologetic about their use of violence, and if SF changed into a real democratic party then that would be another thing but you can easily google SF members, including their supposed new leadership generation, cheering mention of the IRA or attending memorials services to terrorists right to this very day. So much for apologies for sectarian violence.

I doubt that the rise of a party originating as the spokespeople for a terrorist organisation, could happen in modern times in any other European democracy and reflects very badly on the nationalist tribe north and south who vote for them in such numbers. I suspect that the unusual fact that we have no hard right wing parties in ROI is due to the fact that people can exercise their inner psychopathy by voting for SF.

(It is very much an irony of history that the more moderate parties that delivered Sunningdale and later the GFA, namely the SDLP and the UUP, have now seemingly become a footnote of history as people who benefited from their agreements have decided to vote for the more hardline parties on the tribal divide).

In relation to the British government its history here is the typical harmful history of a colonial power, no more no less. They were wholly disinterested in NI for may decades after partition and only actively intervened in 1972 to dismiss the Stormont government when things were getting out of hand. Over the last 20 years they have clearly shown and stated that they are don't retain any selfish interest in NI and will leave if there is majority consent to a united Ireland. At present times their main role in NI is to provide a security presence and to provide funding to keep the NI economy on the road. So any rational analysis would see their current presence as beneficial rather than some kind of a "consistently malevolent" presence as you seem to describe them. How on earth you would consider the above as an emotional analysis is beyond me.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:22 am 
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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Simon crowned
Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade with special responsibilities for Brexit and Tánaiste


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:09 pm 
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Josepha Madigan appointed as Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.
Foxrock resident, went to school in Mt Anville and then Trinity and is now Minister for the Gaeltacht. You couldn't make it up


Last edited by FreeFallin on Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:06 pm 
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FreeFallin wrote:
Josefa Madigan appointed as Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.
Foxrock resident, went to school in Mt Anville and then Trinity and is now Minister for the Gaeltacht. You couldn't make it up


but, but, heather humprys is the new enterprise minister :|

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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:03 pm 
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The Bilderbergers have their eye on the prize. :x

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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:10 pm 
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Open Window wrote:
The Bilderbergers have their eye on the prize. :x


well triangulated!

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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:17 am 
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FiannaFáil throwing tantrums again
No way confidence and supply deal can continue, say FF TDs

I notice that FiannaFáil, SocDems, Independents, Labour, are all election-ready, rhetoric on the airwaves, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:21 am 
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Looks like FF are in a spot of bother with the Waterford cover-up story. They're in a bad place right now, but it looks like it's about to get a whole lot worse. They'd be mad to jump ship, but there must be awful nervousness in the party.

It's funny to see FF complaining that FG don't have any strategy to resolve the housing and health crises. It's almost as if they've forgotten what 'confidence and supply' actually means.

SF have had a tough couple of days, but seem to have handled the storm well. It was outrageous stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:08 pm 
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In terms of timing, when would the election be if they manage to get the next budget through? I suppose they'd need to get the Finance Bill through and tie up other loose ends - social welfare bill etc., presuming there are updates.

If we have a Presidential Election in November 2018, would we jump straight from that into an early December election? I think this would connect the two votes far too closely, dragging the presidential debates into bread and butter issues, and forcing candidates to answer for the parties that nominate them. Imagine Miriam O'Callaghan having to get into the nitty gritty of FF's confidence and supply measures or Mairead McGuinness having to defend the housing situation. 'Twould be unbecoming, don't you know?

Makes more sense to kick it into Jan/Feb 2019. Or for FF to pull the plug before the summer if they think it would benefit them. However, that moment might never arise so I'd go with election posters on lampposts this time next year.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:19 pm 
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I don't see it happening soon given that we have
a controversial abortion referendum, another 6 due
a Pope's visit,
more Brexit economic difficulties,
housing crisis to worsen until 2020,
there are local elections in June 2019,
Most important: FF & FG would not increase their vote share/seats much.
etc.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:00 pm 
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Forgot about the local/European elections - they can be expensive and should be kept well away from a general election.

But the GE couldn't wait until after the locals as FF backbenchers won't wear a fourth budget. Given how long it took to form a government last time around, early 2019 would just about give enough time to have a Taoiseach by the end of March when our neighbours leave the giant trading/political bloc we joined together >40 years ago. Wouldn't want to be sending a caretaker Taoiseach to the 2019 March EU Summit.


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