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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:48 pm 
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GameBlame wrote:
Where does this Sinn Féin is a cult stuff spring from ? Is it just people want to believe that their fellow citizens must have fallen under some sort of brainwashing. People can't fathom disagreement.

If you want to talk cultlike, Liveline today was full Jonestown territory. Duffy let a succession of Fine Gael members on, who each proclaimed how 'Frances should never have gone'

Duffy also listened to Leo's statement in the Dáil in which he correctly noted that Leo's speech was exactly what he would have said if Frances had stayed.

Party members aren't really cult members, that's Looney Eoghan Harris thinking. If you hear someone say it you know it's a loon. Each party membership in Ireland is really a subculture, a lot of it is a socialising worldview kind of thing. Ireland has lots of subcultures, People who attend Leinster rugby matches are a subculture. FG members are a subculture. Some subcultures are closely correlated.


I agree that political parties, right and left, are sub cultures/tribes to an extent and such type of statements that you may have heard on Joe Duffy (I don't listen to that show) would have indeed been ridiculous. I would totally favour members of all parties calling a spade a spade in such circumstances although you have to allow some leeway for loyalty.

However you will see that in most normal political parties there are disagreements on policies, leadership elections and other issues which sometimes result in huge public rows and splits. Also you have people within the same party often expressing quite different opinions on economic or social issues.

This sort of thing doesn't apply to Sinn Fein which is why I use the word "cult". Maybe you have a better word? Then you have to consider their origin as the political arm of a terrorist organisation. Quite recent investigations have shown that the PIRA Army Council still exist and still have an oversight role. Rumours are they they didn't get rid of 100% of their arms either...

Where have there been the disagreements or challenges within the party to their (cult) leader Gerry Adams? Recent internal SF bullying cases in the media seem to be due to some members believing it was a normal party and not toeing the line on all matters.

Then you have the fact that all media outlets have obvious SF Bots in place, these seem to be present day and night monitoring anti-SF remarks and coming in with diversion and whataboutery tactics. Even when SF first started canvassing activities in the South all their activists even seemed to wear the same greyish/brown suits!

I have to hand it to them they are the best organised and perhaps the smartest political operators/revolutionary unit in the country but I call it a cult, its all about the cult of the attainment of a United Ireland by any means possible, with or without consent. Thats the prize they never cease from keeping paramount in anything that they do. Others may call them something else. Hopefully some day they will turn into something else.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:31 pm 
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onioneater wrote:

This sort of thing doesn't apply to Sinn Fein which is why I use the word "cult". Maybe you have a better word? Then you have to consider their origin as the political arm of a terrorist organisation. Quite recent investigations have shown that the PIRA Army Council still exist and still have an oversight role. Rumours are they they didn't get rid of 100% of their arms either...

That's putting the cart before the horse.

Which came first, the aspiration for equal rights or the forceful defence against an apartheid regime which brutally suppressed all protest.

If you're going to dismiss SF for being born out a struggle where waterboarding and electrocution were used on civilians to elicit false confessions to construct a false narrative then you're siding against the democratic process.

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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:49 pm 
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Jesus, you leave the place for a few hours and it starts sounding like a YFG youth camp with George Hook telling the gags.

Anyway, the crisis has moved on to the next stage. Charlie Flanagan gave a very poor performance in the Dail which is raising more questions than answers. In particularly, his explanation of receiving the email on the 13th of November and not reading it until the 20th is simply not credible, particularly because he issued a press release on the 13th of November out of the blue telling people to stop making inquiries and to let the Tribunal do it's work. And of course the following day the Head of the Department of Justice resigned.

The difficulty for Charlie Flanagan is that he was clearly trying to suppress the very information that the Tribunal needed in order to do it's work, and it is only now, two weeks later after the government has been brought to the brink of collapse that those emails have been forwarded to the Tribunal. I would imagine Charlie Flanagan is quite unpopular among the backbenchers right now.

Fianna Fail are now in an awful situation of having to say they have full confidence in Charlie Flanagan. This one is going to rumble on and the person to watch is Mick Wallace.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:13 pm 
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All political parties can seem like cults, during the boom FF and Bertie were like a religion to the true believers, and they really did hate heretics

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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:59 pm 
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catbear wrote:
onioneater wrote:
This sort of thing doesn't apply to Sinn Fein which is why I use the word "cult". Maybe you have a better word? Then you have to consider their origin as the political arm of a terrorist organisation. Quite recent investigations have shown that the PIRA Army Council still exist and still have an oversight role. Rumours are they they didn't get rid of 100% of their arms either...

If you're going to dismiss SF for being born out a struggle where waterboarding and electrocution were used on civilians to elicit false confessions to construct a false narrative then you're siding against the democratic process.

The problem is SF haven't managed to move on from that point. Pretending for decades that they were a separate entity from the IRA must have required a draconian level of discipline within the party ranks. It's still there. Apart from all that, they are Marxists, which makes them an authoritarian cult by their very nature.

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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:53 am 
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You're completely confused as to what has been going on in the State since its foundation.

onioneater wrote:
I agree that political parties, right and left, are sub cultures/tribes to an extent and such type of statements that you may have heard on Joe Duffy (I don't listen to that show) would have indeed been ridiculous. I would totally favour members of all parties calling a spade a spade in such circumstances although you have to allow some leeway for loyalty.


What you missed out on on Joe Duffy was listening to FG members reaction to getting a tiny 2 week taste of what republicans always got for 80 years +. Sustained Condemnation of their actions, their motives, their principles, broadcasting ban etc. etc. And they responded in a small way like republicans have to - by returning to their principles. In FG members case the bottom line is 'we founded this state, we stood up for it against terrorists and crooks in Fianna Fáil etc'

In Republicans case the bottom line is 'your condemnation is all very well and you can label Republicans murderers if it makes you feel better. But if you think that England and its hirelings and its proxy bigots are sort of benevolent force for good in Ireland then you are not really worth listening to'

Quote:
However you will see that in most normal political parties there are disagreements on policies, leadership elections and other issues which sometimes result in huge public rows and splits. Also you have people within the same party often expressing quite different opinions on economic or social issues.


The amount of public dirty laundry washing in FF is really limited too. In any case, if there had been multiple 'wings' to SF then it would only have weakened their negotiating position with the British. Any wings have split away. Maybe more will in future, who knows.

Quote:
I have to hand it to them they are the best organised and perhaps the smartest political operators/revolutionary unit in the country but I call it a cult, its all about the cult of the attainment of a United Ireland by any means possible, with or without consent. Thats the prize they never cease from keeping paramount in anything that they do. Others may call them something else. Hopefully some day they will turn into something else.


You can call them what you want. I think I was probably right with the Eoghan Harris reference. You probably started off your own political journey with Democratic Left or WP. God knows where you call home now. Given SF constantly acknowledge 'consent' only you know how they don't really.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:36 am 
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catbear wrote:
onioneater wrote:

This sort of thing doesn't apply to Sinn Fein which is why I use the word "cult". Maybe you have a better word? Then you have to consider their origin as the political arm of a terrorist organisation. Quite recent investigations have shown that the PIRA Army Council still exist and still have an oversight role. Rumours are they they didn't get rid of 100% of their arms either...

That's putting the cart before the horse.

Which came first, the aspiration for equal rights or the forceful defence against an apartheid regime which brutally suppressed all protest.

If you're going to dismiss SF for being born out a struggle where waterboarding and electrocution were used on civilians to elicit false confessions to construct a false narrative then you're siding against the democratic process.


Oh dear me that bit is SF revisionist 101.

The actual sequence of historical facts was that Civil Rights activists were the ones protesting against the quasi-apartheid state in NI in the 60s, hard line unionists and their Stormont government reacted with violence. The British Government sent in troops to try to quell the rioting in August 1969. The Provisional IRA didn't come into being until December 1969 and was set up an unmandated revolutionary group to try to take advantage of the chaos to force a United Ireland by all and any means. This resulted in a campaign of guerilla warfare against so called military or economic targets but which became pretty indiscriminate quite quickly.

At no time did the Provisionals agitate for Civil Rights or were they a "defence" outfit. Their slogan was simply "Brits Out". The actual Civil Rights activists largely morphed into the SDLP. Anyone who denies these historical facts is just a propagandist or a victim of Republican spin.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:48 am 
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GameBlame wrote:
You're completely confused as to what has been going on in the State since its foundation.

onioneater wrote:
I agree that political parties, right and left, are sub cultures/tribes to an extent and such type of statements that you may have heard on Joe Duffy (I don't listen to that show) would have indeed been ridiculous. I would totally favour members of all parties calling a spade a spade in such circumstances although you have to allow some leeway for loyalty.


What you missed out on on Joe Duffy was listening to FG members reaction to getting a tiny 2 week taste of what republicans always got for 80 years +. Sustained Condemnation of their actions, their motives, their principles, broadcasting ban etc. etc. And they responded in a small way like republicans have to - by returning to their principles. In FG members case the bottom line is 'we founded this state, we stood up for it against terrorists and crooks in Fianna Fáil etc'

In Republicans case the bottom line is 'your condemnation is all very well and you can label Republicans murderers if it makes you feel better. But if you think that England and its hirelings and its proxy bigots are sort of benevolent force for good in Ireland then you are not really worth listening to'

Quote:
However you will see that in most normal political parties there are disagreements on policies, leadership elections and other issues which sometimes result in huge public rows and splits. Also you have people within the same party often expressing quite different opinions on economic or social issues.


The amount of public dirty laundry washing in FF is really limited too. In any case, if there had been multiple 'wings' to SF then it would only have weakened their negotiating position with the British. Any wings have split away. Maybe more will in future, who knows.

Quote:
I have to hand it to them they are the best organised and perhaps the smartest political operators/revolutionary unit in the country but I call it a cult, its all about the cult of the attainment of a United Ireland by any means possible, with or without consent. Thats the prize they never cease from keeping paramount in anything that they do. Others may call them something else. Hopefully some day they will turn into something else.


You can call them what you want. I think I was probably right with the Eoghan Harris reference. You probably started off your own political journey with Democratic Left or WP. God knows where you call home now. Given SF constantly acknowledge 'consent' only you know how they don't really.


Okay so you seem to be another of these persons who labels anyone questioning Republican spin as an Eoghan Harrisite, a Unionist, or a defender of bigots. What nonsense.

And for your information, although I am interested in politics and history, I have never been a member or supporter of any political party, anyone who does so has somewhat of a closed mind or tribalist mindset in my view, whereas I prefer to remain independent of thought. And for a start if I was considering a political allegiance I would have more cop-on than to align myself with the feeble analysis of any groupings such as DL or WP with their childish Republican/Communist origins and world views.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:58 am 
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Coles2 wrote:

Anyway, the crisis has moved on to the next stage. Charlie Flanagan gave a very poor performance in the Dail which is raising more questions than answers. In particularly, his explanation of receiving the email on the 13th of November and not reading it until the 20th is simply not credible, particularly because he issued a press release on the 13th of November out of the blue telling people to stop making inquiries and to let the Tribunal do it's work. And of course the following day the Head of the Department of Justice resigned.

The difficulty for Charlie Flanagan is that he was clearly trying to suppress the very information that the Tribunal needed in order to do it's work, and it is only now, two weeks later after the government has been brought to the brink of collapse that those emails have been forwarded to the Tribunal. I would imagine Charlie Flanagan is quite unpopular among the backbenchers right now.

Fianna Fail are now in an awful situation of having to say they have full confidence in Charlie Flanagan. This one is going to rumble on and the person to watch is Mick Wallace.


one would imagine that if flanagan is telling the truth then it should be easy for him to prove?

whats Mick going to do?


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:34 pm 
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cyrusir wrote:
one would imagine that if flanagan is telling the truth then it should be easy for him to prove? whats Mick going to do?

Both Mick Wallace & Clare Daly have collated whistleblower evidence and are in a position to challenge or point out the failures of the State.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:31 pm 
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Mick is going to unleash his known unkowns on the Dail in 2 weeks time he said the other day. And it will rock the state to its core apparently


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Tuesday wrote:
Image

Odds have changed in 24h :o It's now Simon v. Heather
Wednesday
Image


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:44 pm 
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What would be in the plus column for HH? No offence, but I can't remember her ever seeming particularly strong - although I gather she won credit for not messing up the 1916 centenary celebration.


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:49 pm 
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Ixelles wrote:
What would be in the plus column for HH? No offence, but I can't remember her ever seeming particularly strong - although I gather she won credit for not messing up the 1916 centenary celebration.

1. She's a woman
2. She's a culchie


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 Post subject: Re: #GE17 / #GE18 - the Election Nobody Wanted
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:49 pm 
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A


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