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 Post subject: Re: Sindo publishes Politicians worth
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:15 am 
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My major takeaway from this is that we don't have very many materially successful people in the Dáil. When you're counting pension and ppr, anything shy of a million falls well short of even upper middle class wealth, let alone the real "upper crust" of society.

Although these rich lists are always pretty much nonsense, aren't they?


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 Post subject: Re: Sindo publishes Politicians worth
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:07 am 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
But do these figures not show that the legislature are not really representative of the electorate?

Id imagine that the majority of people under 45 dont have any net worth or indeed, that their net worth is negative due to debt and mortgage payments owed etc. Anecdotal I know but most people I know in Ireland live paycheck to paycheck.

I'd say most politicians are too - you can't eat accrued pension.
And no, they're not representative, they got elected and not many people do that (in the same way not many people end up being hospital consultants). As soon as you get elected, to anywhere, you are no longer the same as the rest. I don't see a way around it, but I don't see it as a particular problem aside from the charvet shirt brigade (for whom it's a way to get rich).

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 Post subject: Re: Sindo publishes Politicians worth
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:50 am 
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I do have a problem with it especially those with 'development land' and multiple houses as many in the dail have
Self interest games the system to have higher and higher property prices

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 Post subject: Re: Sindo publishes Politicians worth
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

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yoganmahew wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
But do these figures not show that the legislature are not really representative of the electorate?

Id imagine that the majority of people under 45 dont have any net worth or indeed, that their net worth is negative due to debt and mortgage payments owed etc. Anecdotal I know but most people I know in Ireland live paycheck to paycheck.

I'd say most politicians are too - you can't eat accrued pension.
And no, they're not representative, they got elected and not many people do that (in the same way not many people end up being hospital consultants). As soon as you get elected, to anywhere, you are no longer the same as the rest. I don't see a way around it, but I don't see it as a particular problem aside from the charvet shirt brigade (for whom it's a way to get rich).


Fair enough I suppose, although as Werpen says, in the context of this site, in cases where the accumulated wealth is derived from property and various property spin-offs I would have a problem with such person's input around planning and development etc

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 Post subject: Re: Sindo publishes Politicians worth
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:33 pm 
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Location: Tullamore
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
But do these figures not show that the legislature are not really representative of the electorate?

Id imagine that the majority of people under 45 dont have any net worth or indeed, that their net worth is negative due to debt and mortgage payments owed etc. Anecdotal I know but most people I know in Ireland live paycheck to paycheck.

I'd say most politicians are too - you can't eat accrued pension.
And no, they're not representative, they got elected and not many people do that (in the same way not many people end up being hospital consultants). As soon as you get elected, to anywhere, you are no longer the same as the rest. I don't see a way around it, but I don't see it as a particular problem aside from the charvet shirt brigade (for whom it's a way to get rich).


Fair enough I suppose, although as Werpen says, in the context of this site, in cases where the accumulated wealth is derived from property and various property spin-offs I would have a problem with such person's input around planning and development etc

Absolutely, but the really dirty stuff happens at local level.

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 Post subject: Re: Sindo publishes Politicians worth
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:53 pm 
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We get what we elect. As long as the system is reasonably transparent in terms of declaration of interests -- which ironically the OP's article implies must be the case -- then blame the people who elect NIMBYs like Shane Ross and outright crooks like Lowry.

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 Post subject: Re: Sindo publishes Politicians worth
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:29 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
Uh, what's the big deal? Is that their annual earnings or their net worth? Assuming the latter, none of them look filthy rich to me, and some of them are near paupers.

Quote:
They calculate their goldplated pensions + shares + property + business value = €m's

So that is their total worth, including pension pots and property? Uh, half a mill wouldn't buy you a corpo house in Dalkey. None of these people are rich. A few look passingly comfortable. And a senior politician's public pension will be reckoned as a couple of million worth -- nice to have, but puts a gleam on net worth that doesn't actually represent cash in hand. It's quite possible pension represents most of the value outside the top forty. Plus some are business owners and it's a fact of life that people accumulate more assets as they age. Sorry, I'm finding this all a bit underwhelming. It's only a short hop from blaming them for being old white cis-gender males.


The thing is that most people who hang around on this site are, at a rough guess , mainly middle class male owner occupiers who live in the better areas of Dublin. If I include my almost paid off PPR and my (defined contribution) pension pot I'm in the upper half of that list and have worked the guts of 40 years to get there with an income that has pretty consistently been in the top 10% of earnings for the last 10 of these years. I would take a guess that 90% of the population fal in the bottom 10% of that list. To them these people look rich - you need to remember that because that influences the way that our politicians and our 'betters' think - anybody who is not on that kind of money is a lazy good-for-nothing who doesn't get up in the morning. Policy is biased towards those in the top 90% of that list.

It's difficult to tell from the article whether property refers only to rental property or to PPRs as well - it suggests it refers to PPRs and I'm surprised how many don't appear to own one if that is the case. To be fair it should be value net of mortgage if declared.

You also need to remember that in many cases the wealth of spouses is not included here - the devious have transferred wealth, the less devious have just not mentioned it (because they don't have to). There as at least one person on that list who would top Michael Lowry if their family wealth was taken into account (as I write this I realise there is a another one)


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 Post subject: Re: Sindo publishes Politicians worth
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:46 pm 
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metalmike wrote:
It's difficult to tell from the article whether property refers only to rental property or to PPRs as well - it suggests it refers to PPRs and I'm surprised how many don't appear to own one if that is the case. To be fair it should be value net of mortgage if declared.


Well it's a bit pointless if it doesn't refer to positions net of debt. Given that we know about 20-25% of TDs are Landlords, and 20-25% of TDs have engaged David Hall for 'where's my nama?' purposes.

So many of them would have been up to their tits in debt. The former deputy leader of FG and Health minister James Reilly was in Stubbs Gazette for God's sake.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/james-reillys-nursing-home-debts-are-cleared-31369848.html

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 Post subject: Re: Sindo publishes Politicians worth
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:27 am 
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metalmike wrote:
You also need to remember that in many cases the wealth of spouses is not included here - the devious have transferred wealth, the less devious have just not mentioned it (because they don't have to). There as at least one person on that list who would top Michael Lowry if their family wealth was taken into account (as I write this I realise there is a another one)

I guess for any long-term Irish resident you can break this down into:

- Liquid assets net of debt ("Lambo money").
- Present value of future non-means-tested entitlements (pensions and benefits, including non-contributory State pension).
- Potential wealth (possible inheritances, means-/situation-tested benefits e.g. unemployment benefits)

Spousal wealth should be offset against the liability side of having a spouse and the risk of that asset putting itself under new management.

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