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How will you vote on the proposed word change to Article 40.6.1 (re-voting allowed)
Yes - Remove it at once! 78%  78%  [ 28 ]
No - I like the idea, sure it's grand. 22%  22%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 36
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 Post subject: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:45 am 
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On 26 October 2018, you will be asked to vote on a proposal to change the Constitution of Ireland in relation to the issue of blasphemy. You will also have the opportunity to vote in a presidential election on the same day.

https://www.refcom.ie/current-referendu ... /overview/


So the ask is to remove only this word.

Quote:
6 1° The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality: –

i The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions.

The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion, such as the radio, the press, the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State.

The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.

ii The right of the citizens to assemble peaceably and without arms.

Provision may be made by law to prevent or control meetings which are determined in accordance with law to be calculated to cause a breach of the peace or to be a danger or nuisance to the general public and to prevent or control meetings in the vicinity of either House of the Oireachtas.

iii The right of the citizens to form associations and unions.

Laws, however, may be enacted for the regulation and control in the public interest of the exercise of the foregoing right.

2° Laws regulating the manner in which the right of forming associations and unions and the right of free assembly may be exercised shall contain no political, religious or class discrimination.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en#part13

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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:48 am 
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The entire line should be removed IMHO and "without arms" (shit was that a seditious thought?) but I like my arms - so for that reason it's a Vote No. BD

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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:51 pm 
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Thanks for posting that OW. To my shame I hadn't read the article or the relevant subsection. Is it just me or is that subsection 6 a mess. I'm not completely sure what my rights are. My reading is that it gives you rights and then says, yeah but if the State says enough is enough , you have to just take our word for it and not be saying anything about your rights.

I'm voting yes. If you're on Team Tinfoil you should too as this is the article that'll bring in Sharia law . Lets stop the Muslim take over and vote yes!

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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:58 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:16 pm 
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What is the current impetus or official justification to make this modest change?

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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:20 pm 
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Breaking: ECHR throws spanner this way.

Quote:
@markhumphrys
Jesus. The ECHR says it is ok to jail people who criticise Muhammad.

https://mobile.twitter.com/markhumphrys ... 7193657346

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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:07 pm 
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tulip wrote:
Thanks for posting that OW. To my shame I hadn't read the article or the relevant subsection. Is it just me or is that subsection 6 a mess. I'm not completely sure what my rights are. My reading is that it gives you rights and then says, yeah but if the State says enough is enough , you have to just take our word for it and not be saying anything about your rights.

I'm voting yes. If you're on Team Tinfoil you should too as this is the article that'll bring in Sharia law . Lets stop the Muslim take over and vote yes!


Yes sub section 6 is a mess, its appears entirely contradictory because of/or badly worded on first inspection. I would need to look up the before and after amendment to see root cause.

As you may note in my previous post, the ECHR ruling may throw a spanner in your voting strategy. This may be a deck chair move on your part and your very last, once again the deck chairs are only allowed be moved by our elected representatives. A power grab or consolidation tucked into the Presidential vote. Sneaky.

Now I understand a bit more what may be going on in reality. I will try to explain.

I read not so long ago that some thought Hate Speech laws would soon come in on the back of a removal of this singular word via referendum, without understanding the origin of this view and little or no debate around the topic that I am aware of, it wasn't till this evening did I find something of more clarity, which should make anyone suspcious, it does seem it is actually the case but to what measure I can not tell at this moment.

I don't have the direct link so transcribing this from a image which I am assuming is accurate:

Neale Richmond (FG Sen.) on twitter wrote:
Currently our constitution states that blasphemy is an offence. We're seeking to remove any reference as we don't think it belongs in the constitution, instead hate speech can de health with in legislation

(Typos are real.)


Did you feel a chill descend over your whole being reading those words? :nin

That alone leaves my default position in place, i.e. when in doubt/don't know, vote NO.

If anyone has the extra time to dig out a linkable source to that tweet please do.

What to expect?

New and deeper leiglsaton reaching to the darkest corner of your beloved daily inter web lurking spots and probably everywhere else besides. Yes more than ever Ireland and the world needs a 1st Amendment. Not only that and I haven't had time but it's suggested that Hate Speech laws in the UK give Islam and others in some instances far greater protection tham what 6 might endow.

Right now the current wording could be equally applied to all religions. Think about that, even Satanists, witches et al might come under it's protection or at least would have a strong arguable case in a court. Once removed we're in a situation where politicians can tailor and appoint their version of acceptable speech and thus thought in legislation, based on the fashion of the day. How this interacts with the freedom of speech provision in the constitution I have not had time to compute.

This goes back to Jordan Peterson's instructive observation by way of question, and I paraphrase the problem is not the laws but WHO gets to decided HOW and WHAT is hate speech?.

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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:50 am 
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I don't see how removing blasphemy opens the door for hate speech. You could have hate speech and blasphemy side by side.

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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:12 am 
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tulip wrote:
I don't see how removing blasphemy opens the door for hate speech. You could have hate speech and blasphemy side by side.


Yea that’s a valid question and we are running out of time to asses the merits of this seemingly innocuous edit.

Perhaps having blasphemy in the constitution stifles political legislative aspirations. Retaining sedition and indecent gives then the kind of root cart Blanche they are seek too often and grow acustom too because we allow it rather foolishly.

For some It will elevates the state past God or the concept of something higher and out of the reach if robots criticism absent fear of legal duress.

While thinking about this the idea that you can’t have antisemitism If you can’t have blasphemy seems to apply. It’s an interesting discussion on its own merits.

Replace antisemitism with sedition. See the equivalence. Removing it is political cherry picking. The public are programmed to react to the keyword. So I doubt hardly a critical thought on the matter at hand will cross peoples minds. I was against it at the time but not he word. The whole same amendment. It’s not like this is some rectification vis a vis a hard won compromise.

Since it’s had virtually had no discussion I’m entirely suspicious. Maybe it’s that they are afraid to raise the Spectre of it being hijacked by Islam as means to an end and simply want to quietly remove that eventuality.

To look at it another way. What will stop the word blasphemy (or more) appearing in legislation?

Nothing as far as I can see.

In that respect. You mayfind your self with less ability to critically express dissatisfaction with more than the metaphysical factions of life without falling into the Orwellian pit of HATE SPEECH.

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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:26 am 
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Comedians, Satirists etc have been ridiculing and parodying Christianity for years. The MSM are always quick to have a go. And so be it.
As I see it, there's no reason to not vote Yes today. Islam will be peed off but they're here to integrate, aren't they?


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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:10 am 
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It's a very simple issue: do you want to remove one word from the constitution.

https://www.refcom.ie/current-referendu ... al-effect/

So that

Quote:
The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.


becomes

Quote:
The publication or utterance of seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.


If you are going for "no", then presumably you would be supportive of adding that word in the same place were it not there already.

There are lots of distracting side issues that come from shining a light on the constitution, not least "whoa, does that mean porn is illegal?, but this referendum is as simple as you can get.

One. Word. Removal.

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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:20 am 
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Eschatologist wrote:
It's a very simple issue: do you want to remove one word from the constitution.

https://www.refcom.ie/current-referendu ... al-effect/

So that

Quote:
The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.


becomes

Quote:
The publication or utterance of seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.


If you are going for "no", then presumably you would be supportive of adding that word in the same place were it not there already.

There are lots of distracting side issues that come from shining a light on the constitution, not least "whoa, does that mean porn is illegal?, but this referendum is as simple as you can get.

One. Word. Removal.


But why remove blasphemy and not seditious or indecent matter?

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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:29 am 
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While we're at it I would prefer to see this crap removed as well:

Quote:
The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good..


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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:43 am 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
But why remove blasphemy and not seditious or indecent matter?

If you're bothered about those things you could start a campaign to have them removed.

Do you want them removed?

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 Post subject: Re: What's in a Word - Blasphemy, Yay or Nay? - POLL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:51 am 
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the actual bill reads

to replace the text "blasphemous, seditious" with "seditious" .
just think about that. it is not a removal at all but a re-wording.


Hate speech laws are unconstitutional. muppets like Neale Richmond, Bacik and the rest who are introducing hate speech laws have no right to do so.

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