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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:13 pm 
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I don't see it petering out soon
Constant 24h news coverage, interviews with ordinary folk on the pickets/protests makes others go out and protest
https://www.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/live-video/
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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Open Window wrote:
Reading around this a little more, it seems it's been building for about an month and is well and truly nationwide brewing. I read that protestors have been blocking. Toll roads, also opening up Toll barriers and I think also destroying the Toll barriers. Seems to be nationwide disgruntlement with everyone regardless of political persuasion fully pissed off.

Looks like they won a reversal of the Tax hike based on latest news but I can't imagine they won't continue to try to depose Macron, who appears nothing ore than a useful figurehead and target of ire. This is more complex but overall it seems to be based around anti-Eu sentiment across the French population.

How did you reach that conclusion and on what basis do you discount the more widely held assessment that it is a reaction to cost of living increases in general?

Open Window wrote:
@anyone - Is it true France ran a referendum on joining the Euro but it was rejected, the result then ignored by French government and joined anyway?

It only takes a few seconds to verify that this is not true so why even post it in the first place? Surely it just weakens the credibility of your other assertions?

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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:48 pm 
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JohnnyTheFox wrote:
How did you reach that conclusion and on what basis do you discount the more widely held assessment that it is a reaction to cost of living increases in general?
14.7m people voted for anti-EU parties FN and FI in 2017 election 1st round - 41% of vote .
Even the French media today syas these protests are acorss all classes and political spectrum of French society, reminiscent of 1840s revolution fever


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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:57 pm 
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temene wrote:
I don't see it petering out soon
Constant 24h news coverage, interviews with ordinary folk on the pickets/protests makes others go out and protest
https://www.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/live-video/
Image


This text has appeared, no source asof yet, but I'm assuming it's doing the rounds on french social media accounts, id so it points to potential for prolonged action.

Quote:
"Nous nous adressons à la population, c'est le calme avant la tempête !!! Faites des provisions, de l'essence /gazoil, faites le pleins en nourriture et médicaments !!! Nous allons tout bloquer dès le 10 décembre !!! Nous nous arrêterons quand se que nous demandons sera réellement mis en place !!! Assez de nous prendre pour des cons !! Nous voulons vivre et non survivre !!! Rejoignez nous le10 décembre !! Aucune école, aucune administration ! Ouverte !! Aucun magasin !! Nous bloquerons les accès et sorties d'aéroport !!les grandes surfaces ! Les bureaux !! La Srpp !! Nous prévenons la population !!! Rejoignez nous au différents barrages ou restez chez vous ! Nous les GJ sommes non violents et ne voulons pas que de belles paroles mais des actes !!! LE 10 DÉCEMBRE TOUS ENSEMBLE !!!!"


Google translate version, open to correction by those who are proficient in French.

Quote:
"We are talking to the population, it's calm before the storm !!! Make provisions, gas / diesel, fill up with food and medicine !!! We will block everything from December 10th !! We will stop when we ask will be really set up !!! Enough to take us for cons! We want to live and not survive! Join us on December 10th No school, no administration! Open !! No shop !! We will block access to and from airport! Supermarkets! The offices! The Srpp !! We warn the population !!! Join us at the various roadblocks or stay at home! We GJ are non-violent and do not want nice words but acts !!! DECEMBER 10 ALL TOGETHER !!!! "

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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:00 pm 
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JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Open Window wrote:
Reading around this a little more, it seems it's been building for about an month and is well and truly nationwide brewing. I read that protestors have been blocking. Toll roads, also opening up Toll barriers and I think also destroying the Toll barriers. Seems to be nationwide disgruntlement with everyone regardless of political persuasion fully pissed off.

Looks like they won a reversal of the Tax hike based on latest news but I can't imagine they won't continue to try to depose Macron, who appears nothing ore than a useful figurehead and target of ire. This is more complex but overall it seems to be based around anti-Eu sentiment across the French population.


How did you reach that conclusion and on what basis do you discount the more widely held assessment that it is a reaction to cost of living increases in general?


I didn't.

JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Open Window wrote:
@anyone - Is it true France ran a referendum on joining the Euro but it was rejected, the result then ignored by French government and joined anyway?

It only takes a few seconds to verify that this is not true so why even post it in the first place? Surely it just weakens the credibility of your other assertions?


No it doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:04 pm 
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Open Window wrote:
@anyone - Is it true France ran a referendum on joining the Euro but it was rejected, the result then ignored by French government and joined anyway?

JohnnyTheFox wrote:

It only takes a few seconds to verify that this is not true so why even post it in the first place? Surely it just weakens the credibility of your other assertions?


France rejected the European Constitutional Treaty in a 2005 referendum.
This treaty was abandoned and replaced by Lisbon Treaty which France joined by parliamentary vote.


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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:16 pm 
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temene wrote:
JohnnyTheFox wrote:
How did you reach that conclusion and on what basis do you discount the more widely held assessment that it is a reaction to cost of living increases in general?
14.7m people voted for anti-EU parties FN and FI in 2017 election 1st round - 41% of vote.
True

temene wrote:
Even the French media today syas these protests are acorss all classes and political spectrum of French society, reminiscent of 1840s revolution fever

Also true.

But neither of those facts contradict the assessment that the main driver of the protests is an increase in the cost of living, both through fuel taxes and other factors. If someone wants to make the case that the underlying cause is anti-EU feeling rather than the increased cost of living, by all means do so. But please be prepared to explain why the public targets are fuel depots, toll roads, the Arc de Triomphe and the national government rather than the Strasbourg parliament or other EU buildings in France.

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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 pm 
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johnp002 wrote:
Open Window wrote:
@anyone - Is it true France ran a referendum on joining the Euro but it was rejected, the result then ignored by French government and joined anyway?

JohnnyTheFox wrote:

It only takes a few seconds to verify that this is not true so why even post it in the first place? Surely it just weakens the credibility of your other assertions?


France rejected the European Constitutional Treaty in a 2005 referendum.
This treaty was abandoned and replaced by Lisbon Treaty which France joined by parliamentary vote.

And that is true too but it occurred six years after France had joined the Euro so the original statement/query was far wide of the mark.

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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:24 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:31 pm 
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JohnnyTheFox wrote:
johnp002 wrote:
Open Window wrote:
@anyone - Is it true France ran a referendum on joining the Euro but it was rejected, the result then ignored by French government and joined anyway?

JohnnyTheFox wrote:

It only takes a few seconds to verify that this is not true so why even post it in the first place? Surely it just weakens the credibility of your other assertions?


France rejected the European Constitutional Treaty in a 2005 referendum.
This treaty was abandoned and replaced by Lisbon Treaty which France joined by parliamentary vote.

And that is true too but it occurred six years after France had joined the Euro so the original statement/query was far wide of the mark.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Open Window wrote:
JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Open Window wrote:
Reading around this a little more, it seems it's been building for about an month and is well and truly nationwide brewing. I read that protestors have been blocking. Toll roads, also opening up Toll barriers and I think also destroying the Toll barriers. Seems to be nationwide disgruntlement with everyone regardless of political persuasion fully pissed off.

Looks like they won a reversal of the Tax hike based on latest news but I can't imagine they won't continue to try to depose Macron, who appears nothing ore than a useful figurehead and target of ire. This is more complex but overall it seems to be based around anti-Eu sentiment across the French population.


How did you reach that conclusion and on what basis do you discount the more widely held assessment that it is a reaction to cost of living increases in general?


I didn't.

Thank you for the considered response and for going to the trouble of explaining in such detail why you disagree [/sarcasm]

General commentary on the protests centres around the increased motoring and energy costs as the motivator. Even the quote you posted subsequently has no mention of the EU but does say "Nous voulons vivre et non survivre !!!/e want to live and not (just) survive!". So if you're going to re-frame it as an anti-EU protest, against the preponderance of evidence, at least be prepared to support that claim with some evidence of your own.


Open Window wrote:
JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Open Window wrote:
@anyone - Is it true France ran a referendum on joining the Euro but it was rejected, the result then ignored by French government and joined anyway?

It only takes a few seconds to verify that this is not true so why even post it in the first place? Surely it just weakens the credibility of your other assertions?


No it doesn't.

Again, thank you for that thoughtful and thought provoking counter argument. I really see you point now.......................................

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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Seeing so many high viz vest reminds me of the bubble years! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:10 pm 
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catbear wrote:
Seeing so many high viz vest reminds me of the bubble years! :lol:


Things are BOOMIN' alright. :nin



:-GC

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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Open Window wrote:
catbear wrote:
Seeing so many high viz vest reminds me of the bubble years! :lol:


Things are BOOMIN' alright. :nin



:-GC

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: France, popular revolt (Yellow Vests) What's going on?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:46 pm 
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JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Open Window wrote:
JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Open Window wrote:
Reading around this a little more, it seems it's been building for about an month and is well and truly nationwide brewing. I read that protestors have been blocking. Toll roads, also opening up Toll barriers and I think also destroying the Toll barriers. Seems to be nationwide disgruntlement with everyone regardless of political persuasion fully pissed off.

Looks like they won a reversal of the Tax hike based on latest news but I can't imagine they won't continue to try to depose Macron, who appears nothing ore than a useful figurehead and target of ire. This is more complex but overall it seems to be based around anti-Eu sentiment across the French population.


How did you reach that conclusion and on what basis do you discount the more widely held assessment that it is a reaction to cost of living increases in general?


I didn't.

Thank you for the considered response and for going to the trouble of explaining in such detail why you disagree [/sarcasm]

General commentary on the protests centres around the increased motoring and energy costs as the motivator. Even the quote you posted subsequently has no mention of the EU but does say "Nous voulons vivre et non survivre !!!/e want to live and not (just) survive!". So if you're going to re-frame it as an anti-EU protest, against the preponderance of evidence, at least be prepared to support that claim with some evidence of your own.


Open Window wrote:
JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Open Window wrote:
@anyone - Is it true France ran a referendum on joining the Euro but it was rejected, the result then ignored by French government and joined anyway?

It only takes a few seconds to verify that this is not true so why even post it in the first place? Surely it just weakens the credibility of your other assertions?


No it doesn't.

Again, thank you for that thoughtful and thought provoking counter argument. I really see you point now.......................................


Actually the context of these demo is within the broader dislike of the EU. The people manning the roadblocks mostly vote for explicitly anti EU parties, like RN and FI. As Macron said himself if France had a Frexit referendum, even before these current demos kicked off, a larger percentage of the French population would vote to leave than in the UK. With the people who voted for Macron mostly voting to stay, and those who did not vote for him, voting to leave. The pro EU people got a big kick in the teeth recently with the way the Germans contemptuously dismissed the French constructive ideas for badly needed EU reforms. As I've said before the guys in Bercy, the Minister of Finance, took note of the Germans very short termist naked self interest and have planned accordingly. The French have a plan for a defacto Frexit. Given the disturbing pattern of German extremely non-communitaire behavior. The Germans are very blunt. We profit greatly from the current situation. When we no longer do, its over.

Macron may have postponed the tax hike but this weekend will be very interesting. As another poster said, the news channels like BFMTV are wall to wall hi viz. Due to the inchoate nature of the situation there is no knowing what happens next. The fact that even Le Pen was invited to the great and the good confab meeting at the Élysée show just how scared the government are. A few days before they were trying to blame her for all the violence. Even though it was the FI and Black Block people doing the rioting, not FN people.


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