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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Terra Incognita wrote:
newirishman wrote:
Whatever about jmc's points on the "real" costs of EV, there's 2 very, very good reasons for moving away from a oil-based ICE:

1 - burning that stuff creates poisonous fumes. regardless of any opinion on global warming, burning oil (and oil derivatives) poisons the enviornment
2 - much much more important: oil is a great, finite, natural resource that is so much more useful for hundreds of thousands of different purposes that it is borderline insane to set it on fire.

I mean you can recycle a lot of stuff and reuse, and we do that already, but you can't recycle oil that has been refined to petrol or diesel and burned in an combustion engine. When it's gone, it's gone.

I think that nuclear power plus renewable energy combined with battery improvements is well worth spending money on. More electric cars, trucks, transport!

The instant benefit to switching to EV's even if you still make the electricity by burning fossils is the massive improvement in air quality in cities.

Try explaining to a child what would happen if you breathed the stuff coming out of the tailpipe of the cars passing for even a short length of time as you walk them to school and look at the reaction on their face.

Its ludicrous that we actually pump out huge volumes of poisonous gas and lung damaging particulates in the environment where we live.

As for JMC's subsidy's. The ICE cars massive subsidy is that they dont have to pay for the waste, everyone else fits the bill. The tab for the health damaging effects of breathing particulates and poisonous exhaust fumes is picked up by the tax payer or when you pay for Health insurance that's not including the loss of tax and productivity that comes with ill heath and that before we get into the environmental costs from all the CO2.

This is the massive subsidy for fossil fueal cars that we are all paying. Its just until very recently we had no alternative.

What price would petrol be if it had to pay for the ill health, early death, loss of productivity and environmental damage it costs?

To say that EV's are subsidized and fossil cars are not it disingenuous at best.


The locals may not do it in Ireland but there has been very active monitoring of emissions in places like California for many many decades. We are talking p.p.m. And often p.p.b. In your car air intake while stuck in a traffic jam. Take it from someone who remembers when the default color of the air in LA was reddish brown and whose eyes stung and teared on a regular basis from the smog. Even then that was p.p.m. So the "we are poisoning the world" argument is pure hokum.

Now the high sulfur Polish coal burnt in the fireplaces of Dublin, that was a very different matter. That was high p.p.m H2SO4. You probably grew up breathing in that nasty shit.

But we are back to the magical thinking of the EV people. Where is the E of the EV to come from? The base load capacity? The only "renewable" that can be used for base load is hydro. And you cannot build dams any more. Because of the greens. In fact they want to knock them down.

The modern economy is based on cheap hydrocarbon energy. You want to get rid of it for purely ideological reasons, because there sure are no scientific or economic ones, then start by living by you own principals. How long would you survive in a pre industrial society? Because thats what the greens are proposing. And what about all those "excess" people? Because the carrying capacity of a non hydrocarbon based economy is about 1/20'th of our current one.

Here is the simply fact. The Chinese, Indians and other developing economies are not buying into this bullshit. They will try, for very good economic reasons, to maximize GDP per m.b.e oil consumption but thats about it. Their interest in EV is purely as just some more new shit they can sell to the west. But when push comes to shove they will base their economies on what what them richest / fastest. Which is petrol/ diesel bases transportation and coal/gas/oil electric generation.

China already buys far more cars than the US or Europe. And India buys more than Germany. All arguments for EV's pushed by the greens are based on a world that existed maybe 30/40 years ago. If it ever existed outside their minds. It certainly does not exist today. In the not too distant future the combined US/Europe automobile market will smaller than the Chine/India/ SE Asian countries. I have been hearing "we are running out of oil" argument since the mid 70's. Its wrong. We have more oil than ever. And the "carbon emissions" argument is about as scientific as astrology and homeopathy. In fact the logic chain is exactly the same as homeopathy. And just as spurious. You really should read up on the history of Lysenkoism. Its exactly the same. With the same end results. Economic disaster.


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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:10 pm 
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jmc wrote:
Terra Incognita wrote:
newirishman wrote:
Whatever about jmc's points on the "real" costs of EV, there's 2 very, very good reasons for moving away from a oil-based ICE:

1 - burning that stuff creates poisonous fumes. regardless of any opinion on global warming, burning oil (and oil derivatives) poisons the enviornment
2 - much much more important: oil is a great, finite, natural resource that is so much more useful for hundreds of thousands of different purposes that it is borderline insane to set it on fire.

I mean you can recycle a lot of stuff and reuse, and we do that already, but you can't recycle oil that has been refined to petrol or diesel and burned in an combustion engine. When it's gone, it's gone.

I think that nuclear power plus renewable energy combined with battery improvements is well worth spending money on. More electric cars, trucks, transport!

The instant benefit to switching to EV's even if you still make the electricity by burning fossils is the massive improvement in air quality in cities.

Try explaining to a child what would happen if you breathed the stuff coming out of the tailpipe of the cars passing for even a short length of time as you walk them to school and look at the reaction on their face.

Its ludicrous that we actually pump out huge volumes of poisonous gas and lung damaging particulates in the environment where we live.

As for JMC's subsidy's. The ICE cars massive subsidy is that they dont have to pay for the waste, everyone else fits the bill. The tab for the health damaging effects of breathing particulates and poisonous exhaust fumes is picked up by the tax payer or when you pay for Health insurance that's not including the loss of tax and productivity that comes with ill heath and that before we get into the environmental costs from all the CO2.

This is the massive subsidy for fossil fueal cars that we are all paying. Its just until very recently we had no alternative.

What price would petrol be if it had to pay for the ill health, early death, loss of productivity and environmental damage it costs?

To say that EV's are subsidized and fossil cars are not it disingenuous at best.


The locals may not do it in Ireland but there has been very active monitoring of emissions in places like California for many many decades. We are talking p.p.m. And often p.p.b. In your car air intake while stuck in a traffic jam. Take it from someone who remembers when the default color of the air in LA was reddish brown and whose eyes stung and teared on a regular basis from the smog. Even then that was p.p.m. So the "we are poisoning the world" argument is pure hokum.

Now the high sulfur Polish coal burnt in the fireplaces of Dublin, that was a very different matter. That was high p.p.m H2SO4. You probably grew up breathing in that nasty shit.

But we are back to the magical thinking of the EV people. Where is the E of the EV to come from? The base load capacity? The only "renewable" that can be used for base load is hydro. And you cannot build dams any more. Because of the greens. In fact they want to knock them down.

The modern economy is based on cheap hydrocarbon energy. You want to get rid of it for purely ideological reasons, because there sure are no scientific or economic ones, then start by living by you own principals. How long would you survive in a pre industrial society? Because thats what the greens are proposing. And what about all those "excess" people? Because the carrying capacity of a non hydrocarbon based economy is about 1/20'th of our current one.

Here is the simply fact. The Chinese, Indians and other developing economies are not buying into this bullshit. They will try, for very good economic reasons, to maximize GDP per m.b.e oil consumption but thats about it. Their interest in EV is purely as just some more new shit they can sell to the west. But when push comes to shove they will base their economies on what what them richest / fastest. Which is petrol/ diesel bases transportation and coal/gas/oil electric generation.

China already buys far more cars than the US or Europe. And India buys more than Germany. All arguments for EV's pushed by the greens are based on a world that existed maybe 30/40 years ago. If it ever existed outside their minds. It certainly does not exist today. In the not too distant future the combined US/Europe automobile market will smaller than the Chine/India/ SE Asian countries. I have been hearing "we are running out of oil" argument since the mid 70's. Its wrong. We have more oil than ever. And the "carbon emissions" argument is about as scientific as astrology and homeopathy. In fact the logic chain is exactly the same as homeopathy. And just as spurious. You really should read up on the history of Lysenkoism. Its exactly the same. With the same end results. Economic disaster.

Whoa Whoa hold your horses JMC

I don't think I made any comment about the economy or how to generate electricity.

But I did say:

1. If we all switch to EV's there will be am immediate and tangible benefits to health, productivity, life expectancy from cleaner air in the city's.

Even if that electricity is generated with fossil fuels we will get those immediate benefits as the smoke stack will not be where people live. It is also way more efficient to burn fossil fuels in one large plant and transport the electricity rather than have millions of little power plants driving around spewing out their inefficiently generated fumes and noise where people live.

2. My major point which you chose to ignore was the massive subsidy fossil fuels get by everyone else picking up the tab for the harm to heath and the environment caused by burning those fuels.

Fossil powered cars get a much larger subsidy than EV's, its disingenuous to say that they don't when you ignore the waste problem.

I would be €600 a year richer if I could ignore the cost of disposing my garbage I'm not even sure what it costs to get ride of my sewage but you get the point. You cant claim EV's get unfair subsidies while ignoring the massive subsidy and real economic costs of fossil powered cars that keep the cost at the pump low.

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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:26 pm 
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ireland would have to double the amount of electricty generated to keep 2 million EVs powered.

if you enjoy battery angst with your mobile phone, you're going to to love it with your car. 5mins pumping petrol once a week into your car, instead of everyday.

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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Thing Fish wrote:
ireland would have to double the amount of electricty generated to keep 2 million EVs powered.

if you enjoy battery angst with your mobile phone, you're going to to love it with your car. 5mins pumping petrol once a week into your car, instead of everyday.

I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make?

Are you saying we shouldn't invest in electricity generation? or that electric cars will use too much electricity so we shouldn't bother?

In the style of JMC: If like me you had actually talked to someone in ESB who's job it is to plan this sort of thing you would know that the biggest headache for supply is new Data centers which require Jigga Watts of electricity just to run the servers, and they are popping up like mushrooms. The ESB inst even worried about the electricity required to power the average household driving of 35 km/day. It takes less than 1 hour to charge an EV for 35 km driving so it will have minimal impact on the grid. Your EV will be fully charged every morning. So again I don't know what your second point is.

It takes more than 5 mins to refuel a fossil car.
Every morning you wake up your fossil car has less range (unlike the EV). At some point you get range anxiety and then you have to depart from your planned journey/commute, Go to a petrol station, pump then run the gauntlet of the crisps, bad coffee and great unwashed then and que up at the till pay etc then get back on your journey. 10-15 mins minimum to refuel more if you have kids.

I for one am looking forward to the day that I never have to go to a smelly petrol station again. There has never been an alternative (since horses) until now.

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"Perfect is the enemy of the good"
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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Jun 7, 2018
Posts: 29
Terra Incognita wrote:
newirishman wrote:
Whatever about jmc's points on the "real" costs of EV, there's 2 very, very good reasons for moving away from a oil-based ICE:

1 - burning that stuff creates poisonous fumes. regardless of any opinion on global warming, burning oil (and oil derivatives) poisons the enviornment
2 - much much more important: oil is a great, finite, natural resource that is so much more useful for hundreds of thousands of different purposes that it is borderline insane to set it on fire.

I mean you can recycle a lot of stuff and reuse, and we do that already, but you can't recycle oil that has been refined to petrol or diesel and burned in an combustion engine. When it's gone, it's gone.

I think that nuclear power plus renewable energy combined with battery improvements is well worth spending money on. More electric cars, trucks, transport!

The instant benefit to switching to EV's even if you still make the electricity by burning fossils is the massive improvement in air quality in cities.

Try explaining to a child what would happen if you breathed the stuff coming out of the tailpipe of the cars passing for even a short length of time as you walk them to school and look at the reaction on their face.

Its ludicrous that we actually pump out huge volumes of poisonous gas and lung damaging particulates in the environment where we live.

As for JMC's subsidy's. The ICE cars massive subsidy is that they dont have to pay for the waste, everyone else fits the bill. The tab for the health damaging effects of breathing particulates and poisonous exhaust fumes is picked up by the tax payer or when you pay for Health insurance that's not including the loss of tax and productivity that comes with ill heath and that before we get into the environmental costs from all the CO2.

This is the massive subsidy for fossil fueal cars that we are all paying. Its just until very recently we had no alternative.

What price would petrol be if it had to pay for the ill health, early death, loss of productivity and environmental damage it costs?

To say that EV's are subsidized and fossil cars are not it disingenuous at best.


Is there any proof that working in a city means you are likely to die younger?


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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:56 pm 
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Location: Oighearland
Terra Incognita wrote:
Thing Fish wrote:
ireland would have to double the amount of electricty generated to keep 2 million EVs powered.

if you enjoy battery angst with your mobile phone, you're going to to love it with your car. 5mins pumping petrol once a week into your car, instead of everyday.

I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make?

Are you saying we shouldn't invest in electricity generation? or that electric cars will use too much electricity so we shouldn't bother?

In the style of JMC: If like me you had actually talked to someone in ESB who's job it is to plan this sort of thing you would know that the biggest headache for supply is new Data centers which require Jigga Watts of electricity just to run the servers, and they are popping up like mushrooms. The ESB inst even worried about the electricity required to power the average household driving of 35 km/day. It takes less than 1 hour to charge an EV for 35 km driving so it will have minimal impact on the grid. Your EV will be fully charged every morning. So again I don't know what your second point is.

It takes more than 5 mins to refuel a fossil car.
Every morning you wake up your fossil car has less range (unlike the EV). At some point you get range anxiety and then you have to depart from your planned journey/commute, Go to a petrol station, pump then run the gauntlet of the crisps, bad coffee and great unwashed then and que up at the till pay etc then get back on your journey. 10-15 mins minimum to refuel more if you have kids.

I for one am looking forward to the day that I never have to go to a smelly petrol station again. There has never been an alternative (since horses) until now.



How many electric cars are there in Ireland right now?

ask your friends what would happen if everyone switched their toasters on at the same time!

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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:10 pm 
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All the toasters get turned on every workday morning. :x

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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:55 pm 
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Thing Fish wrote:
Terra Incognita wrote:
Thing Fish wrote:
ireland would have to double the amount of electricty generated to keep 2 million EVs powered.

if you enjoy battery angst with your mobile phone, you're going to to love it with your car. 5mins pumping petrol once a week into your car, instead of everyday.

I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make?

Are you saying we shouldn't invest in electricity generation? or that electric cars will use too much electricity so we shouldn't bother?

In the style of JMC: If like me you had actually talked to someone in ESB who's job it is to plan this sort of thing you would know that the biggest headache for supply is new Data centers which require Jigga Watts of electricity just to run the servers, and they are popping up like mushrooms. The ESB inst even worried about the electricity required to power the average household driving of 35 km/day. It takes less than 1 hour to charge an EV for 35 km driving so it will have minimal impact on the grid. Your EV will be fully charged every morning. So again I don't know what your second point is.

It takes more than 5 mins to refuel a fossil car.
Every morning you wake up your fossil car has less range (unlike the EV). At some point you get range anxiety and then you have to depart from your planned journey/commute, Go to a petrol station, pump then run the gauntlet of the crisps, bad coffee and great unwashed then and que up at the till pay etc then get back on your journey. 10-15 mins minimum to refuel more if you have kids.

I for one am looking forward to the day that I never have to go to a smelly petrol station again. There has never been an alternative (since horses) until now.



How many electric cars are there in Ireland right now?

ask your friends what would happen if everyone switched their toasters on at the same time!


The point about EV charging is valid, as when EVs become more common, I expect that the householders would need to get smart meters that schedule their charging to avoid "shocks" to the network and that extra capacity will have to be added over time. Technology is constantly advancing towards workable solutions to the future energy requirements of a world of EVs.

We will see a more distributed electrical grid with multiple sources of power generation as well as multiple distributed battery banks located around the grid, the electricity grid will take on a structure to the gas distribution system where there are multiple storage systems between the source and the consumer.

Such systems would eliminate the "toaster" meltdown by having stored power available to take the load.

The real challenge is to develop the large scale storage solutions that could hold more than a few hours of electrical charge to avoid generation over & undershoots.

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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:38 am 
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dolanbaker wrote:
The real challenge is to develop the large scale storage solutions that could hold more than a few hours of electrical charge to avoid generation over & undershoots.

If only there was some way that every household could have a large battery, say for example one parked in their driveway with the charge and discharge controlled by some sort of app. We would solve that challenge without even needing the smart meters.....

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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:53 am 
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Terra Incognita wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
The real challenge is to develop the large scale storage solutions that could hold more than a few hours of electrical charge to avoid generation over & undershoots.

If only there was some way that every household could have a large battery, say for example one parked in their driveway with the charge and discharge controlled by some sort of app. We would solve that challenge without even needing the smart meters.....

Bingo!
This is one strategy that is being employed in Denmark, simply because an EV with a range of 150km may typically only drive 40km a day, that's a lot of spare capacity that can be used to support the grid.

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Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
"To be precise, my mistake. Humans are underrated": Elon Musk


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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:52 am 
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Quote:
Energy supplier Enervie, transmission system operator Amprion, and Nissan worked together to qualify the Leaf for all the German TSO regulatory requirements for primary power regulation.

What this mean is electric cars like the Leaf can be used to help stabilise the grid and smooth out power delivery which can be a problem for power companies using renewables with their fluctuating power delivery.

The TSO tick means the Leaf can be integrated as a regulating reserve for the German electricity grid.



It's a different standard to Tesla and current EU EV standard I think; but it's just been approved in Germany


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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:41 am 
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tulip wrote:
All the toasters get turned on every workday morning. :x

Ah, but what if people turned kettles on at the same time too? What then? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:46 am 
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E92 335i wrote:
Is there any proof that working in a city means you are likely to die younger?

https://www.naturalmedicinejournal.com/ ... lity-rates
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/rel ... lution/en/
https://www.newscientist.com/article/20 ... pollution/

There appears to be lots of it.

The last one is terrific; I spent some years working in Delhi, then as now horribly polluted, and my lungs have never been the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:03 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
tulip wrote:
All the toasters get turned on every workday morning. :x

Ah, but what if people turned kettles on at the same time too? What then? :D

What a day everyone gets a cuppa tea and a slice of toast before work! I'm looking forward to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Tesla - Pimping Elon's Ride?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:15 pm 
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The half time kettle effect is well documented.
http://wordpress.mrreid.org/2010/06/23/ ... uantified/


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