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 Post subject: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:56 am 
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Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/Finland-is-killing-its-world-famous-basic-income-experiment--/
Quote:
Finland’s basic income experiment made headlines around the world when it launched in 2017, and is now in its second and final year.

The project involves 2000 unemployed Finns, who receive roughly $690 every month – no strings attached. No official findings have yet been published, but some participants reported lower stress levels at an early stage.

While the experiment is still attracting attention internationally, Finnish decision-makers have already made a silent U-turn, scrapping plans to extend the project.

The Finnish government is now eyeing different social welfare solutions.
Since the beginning of last year, 2000 Finns are getting money from the government each month – and they are not expected to do anything in return. The participants, aged 25–58, are all unemployed, and were selected at random by Kela, Finland’s social-security institution.

Instead of unemployment benefits, the participants now receive €560, or $690, per month, tax free. Should they find a job during the two-year trial, they still get to keep the money.

In recent years, a growing number of tech entrepreneurs have endorsed universal basic income (UBI), a system system in which every individual receives a standard amount of money, simply for being alive.

Entrepreneurs who have expressed support for UBI include Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk, Facebook co-founder Chris Hughes, and Google’s futurist and engineering director Ray Kurzweil.

These tech moguls recognize that UBI, as well as combatting poverty, could also help solve the problem of increased robotization in the workforce, a problem they are very much part of creating.

At the 2018 TED conference, Kurzweil made a bold prediction about the future of ”free” money, predicting that by the 2030s, UBI will have spread worldwide – and that we’ll be able to ”live very well on that.”


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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Presumably this pays, though it's done little to thwart the rise of stocks on Wall st since last year.

Macron slams ‘Anglo-Saxon’ tech giants for distorting competition
Quote:
Emmanuel Macron hit out at “Anglo-Saxon” technology giants for distorting competition and acting against the common good as he pushed European leaders to adopt a radical approach to taxing digital companies. 

Speaking after a summit of EU leaders in Estonia, the French president said “the dominant actors, the Anglo-Saxon ones especially, do not respect the rules of the game”, citing complex schemes of tax avoidance and tactics to thwart rival start-ups offering innovative services. 

France is spearheading a European push to tax digital companies such as Google, Facebook and Amazon based on the revenues, rather than the profits, they generate in EU countries. Germany, Italy and Spain back this “turnover tax” which has the potential to wreak havoc with tech groups’ business models. 

The French president pinpointed Google as destroying 90 per cent of the market share of “of all independent European operators” offering online price comparison services when the US company decided to enter that market. 

The search engine was slapped with a record €2.4bn fine by Brussels this year for manipulating a dominant position in the sector by giving preference to its own shopping service at the expense of smaller competitors. 

Mr Macron called on Brussels to create a “name and shame” platform where smaller online companies could report competition-distorting behaviour at the hands of larger rivals, saying it was a joint proposal of Germany, France, Italy and Spain. 

The French president said that the plan, which should be a “European initiative”, would “allow anyone, any economic actor who thinks they are a victim of excessive behaviour, or of an abuse of dominant position . . . to make known their difficulties”.

Europe needs “whistleblowers on these matters of economic aggression”, he said. 

Mr Macron praised the European Commission’s decision to force the Irish government to claw back billions of euros in taxes from Apple last year. 

Plans for a European “turnover tax” are fiercely opposed by low-tax countries, such as Ireland and Luxembourg. Speaking ahead of the Tallinn summit on Friday, Leo Varadkar, Ireland’s prime minister, called on the EU to reduce rather than ramp up the tax burden on Silicon Valley groups. 

“If we want Europe to become a digital leader and we want faster innovation then the solution is not more taxes and more regulation but the opposite,” said Mr Varadkar. He added that Ireland had the support of the Netherlands, Luxembourg and the Nordic countries against any EU tax offensive.


https://www.ft.com/content/efe954f4-a53a-11e7-9e4f-7f5e6a7c98a2


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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:49 pm 
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UBI basically allows the Billionaires to keep their lifestyles, their factories, banks and to use the Socialist term the means of production whilst paying a subsistence payment to the general population who will find it more and more difficult to find jobs that haven't been automated away. It would be unlikely you'd be able to afford a house or even a holiday on UBI. The billionaires get to keep their gains whilst nothing would accrue to the lumpen proles who are not related to the Billionaires.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:10 pm 
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tulip wrote:
UBI basically allows the Billionaires to keep their lifestyles, their factories, banks and to use the Socialist term the means of production whilst paying a subsistence payment to the general population who will find it more and more difficult to find jobs that haven't been automated away. It would be unlikely you'd be able to afford a house or even a holiday on UBI. The billionaires get to keep their gains whilst nothing would accrue to the lumpen proles who are not related to the Billionaires.

Surely the point of UBI is to provide a basic income without the administrative burden of means testing, reconciling multiple payments from different government sources etc. The Finnish case above, for instance, is about equal to Finland's unemployment payment. Nobody suggested you could buy a house on it. For that presumably you have to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:20 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
tulip wrote:
UBI basically allows the Billionaires to keep their lifestyles, their factories, banks and to use the Socialist term the means of production whilst paying a subsistence payment to the general population who will find it more and more difficult to find jobs that haven't been automated away. It would be unlikely you'd be able to afford a house or even a holiday on UBI. The billionaires get to keep their gains whilst nothing would accrue to the lumpen proles who are not related to the Billionaires.

Surely the point of UBI is to provide a basic income without the administrative burden of means testing, reconciling multiple payments from different government sources etc. The Finnish case above, for instance, is about equal to Finland's unemployment payment. Nobody suggested you could buy a house on it. For that presumably you have to work.


You're right, but UBI will be paid to everyone not just those on the scratcher. I'm conflating this thread with the automation, they took our jobs thread. Ignore my tangent until I can put down a reasoned post joining the two :D

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:45 pm 
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tulip wrote:
You're right, but UBI will be paid to everyone not just those on the scratcher.

Ok, maybe I got the wrong end of the stick. I suppose that is what "universal" implies. Doesn't sound right though. Are the billionaires going to get it too? I was thinking of it as more akin to the Universal Credit in the UK, i.e. a universal replacement for all other social welfare benefits, not something everyone gets regardless of other income. The Universal Credit is a mechanism (or a Tory ploy, depending on how you look at it) to incentivise work by reducing overlapping government payments and allowing a certain amount of income from employment without losing the credit.

I guess the other question about UBI is what the "basic" part implies. Does that mean keeping the wolf from the door or having a house, two and a half kids, and holidays?

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Well UBI/'Robots taking our jobs' might just be a clusterfuck. Brought to you by the same people who brought you the 2008 GFC and the global land bubble.


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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:16 pm 
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I go by the saying "if you can't figure out what is for sale then YOU are the product"

if you cant figure out who is paying for UBI, then YOU are.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:13 pm 
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I don't think robots are going to take our jobs -- I don't give that theory much credence at all. Automation has always increased jobs in the past. No, I think poor(er) people are going to take our jobs. Or rather, they will collectively bring wage levels down. The competition for better paying jobs will be fiercer. Standards of living will be lower. But they'll be higher in places where they were low before. It's not all bad. But it's bad for people who expected to have a certain standard of living and to own the roof over their heads.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:57 am 
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ps200306 wrote:
tulip wrote:
UBI basically allows the Billionaires to keep their lifestyles, their factories, banks and to use the Socialist term the means of production whilst paying a subsistence payment to the general population who will find it more and more difficult to find jobs that haven't been automated away. It would be unlikely you'd be able to afford a house or even a holiday on UBI. The billionaires get to keep their gains whilst nothing would accrue to the lumpen proles who are not related to the Billionaires.

Surely the point of UBI is to provide a basic income without the administrative burden of means testing, reconciling multiple payments from different government sources etc. The Finnish case above, for instance, is about equal to Finland's unemployment payment. Nobody suggested you could buy a house on it. For that presumably you have to work.

Right, but that administrative burden provides secure, well-paid, pensionable jobs...

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:07 am 
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yoganmahew wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
tulip wrote:
UBI basically allows the Billionaires to keep their lifestyles, their factories, banks and to use the Socialist term the means of production whilst paying a subsistence payment to the general population who will find it more and more difficult to find jobs that haven't been automated away. It would be unlikely you'd be able to afford a house or even a holiday on UBI. The billionaires get to keep their gains whilst nothing would accrue to the lumpen proles who are not related to the Billionaires.

Surely the point of UBI is to provide a basic income without the administrative burden of means testing, reconciling multiple payments from different government sources etc. The Finnish case above, for instance, is about equal to Finland's unemployment payment. Nobody suggested you could buy a house on it. For that presumably you have to work.

Right, but that administrative burden provides secure, well-paid, pensionable jobs...

Only by making the welfare system bewildering for the punter. Bullshit jobs can be replaced by something more productive, to everyone's benefit. But I get your point -- there are vested interests who don't want that to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:51 am 
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Epicurus wrote:
Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/Finland-is-killing-its-world-famous-basic-income-experiment--/
Quote:
Finland’s basic income experiment made headlines around the world when it launched in 2017, and is now in its second and final year.

The project involves 2000 unemployed Finns, who receive roughly $690 every month – no strings attached. No official findings have yet been published, but some participants reported lower stress levels at an early stage.
At the 2018 TED conference, Kurzweil made a bold prediction about the future of ”free” money, predicting that by the 2030s, UBI will have spread worldwide – and that we’ll be able to ”live very well on that.”



From that news report.

Quote:
But in December last year, the Finnish parliament passed a bill that is taking the country’s welfare system in quite the opposite direction. The new ’activation model’ law requires jobseekers to work a minimum of 18 hours for three months – if you don’t manage to find such a job, you lose some of your benefits. And Finance Minister Petteri Orpo already has plans for a new project once the basic income pilot concludes in December 2018.

Why is it being dropped?, it depends on who you ask I suppose.

Reading between the lines it appears that it may have been too successful at eliminating the stigma of unemployment and that some people realised that working for minimum wage jobs was a mugs game. Also UBI recipients are "bad consumers", they buy very little, not good for business.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:43 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
Bullshit jobs can be replaced by something more productive, to everyone's benefit. But I get your point -- there are vested interests who don't want that to happen.

All jobs are bullshit jobs, beyond a certain point. Some are just more obviously so than others.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:38 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
Bullshit jobs can be replaced by something more productive, to everyone's benefit. But I get your point -- there are vested interests who don't want that to happen.

All jobs are bullshit jobs, beyond a certain point. Some are just more obviously so than others.

I blame farming. Once we figured out how to feed ourselves with the efforts of <5% of the population, we were on the slippery slope to Socialites and Cat Behaviour Consultants.

Also, what is "productive" anyway? And why don't we organise ourselves to do more of those things right now? It's not like we're short of people or resources.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:01 am 
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Here's another spanner to throw in the works. If you believe this, 10% of the population are not fit for any job, and never will be ( -- summary points are in first 60 secs):


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