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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:07 am 
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yoganmahew wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
tulip wrote:
UBI basically allows the Billionaires to keep their lifestyles, their factories, banks and to use the Socialist term the means of production whilst paying a subsistence payment to the general population who will find it more and more difficult to find jobs that haven't been automated away. It would be unlikely you'd be able to afford a house or even a holiday on UBI. The billionaires get to keep their gains whilst nothing would accrue to the lumpen proles who are not related to the Billionaires.

Surely the point of UBI is to provide a basic income without the administrative burden of means testing, reconciling multiple payments from different government sources etc. The Finnish case above, for instance, is about equal to Finland's unemployment payment. Nobody suggested you could buy a house on it. For that presumably you have to work.

Right, but that administrative burden provides secure, well-paid, pensionable jobs...

Only by making the welfare system bewildering for the punter. Bullshit jobs can be replaced by something more productive, to everyone's benefit. But I get your point -- there are vested interests who don't want that to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:51 am 
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Epicurus wrote:
Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/Finland-is-killing-its-world-famous-basic-income-experiment--/
Quote:
Finland’s basic income experiment made headlines around the world when it launched in 2017, and is now in its second and final year.

The project involves 2000 unemployed Finns, who receive roughly $690 every month – no strings attached. No official findings have yet been published, but some participants reported lower stress levels at an early stage.
At the 2018 TED conference, Kurzweil made a bold prediction about the future of ”free” money, predicting that by the 2030s, UBI will have spread worldwide – and that we’ll be able to ”live very well on that.”



From that news report.

Quote:
But in December last year, the Finnish parliament passed a bill that is taking the country’s welfare system in quite the opposite direction. The new ’activation model’ law requires jobseekers to work a minimum of 18 hours for three months – if you don’t manage to find such a job, you lose some of your benefits. And Finance Minister Petteri Orpo already has plans for a new project once the basic income pilot concludes in December 2018.

Why is it being dropped?, it depends on who you ask I suppose.

Reading between the lines it appears that it may have been too successful at eliminating the stigma of unemployment and that some people realised that working for minimum wage jobs was a mugs game. Also UBI recipients are "bad consumers", they buy very little, not good for business.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:43 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
Bullshit jobs can be replaced by something more productive, to everyone's benefit. But I get your point -- there are vested interests who don't want that to happen.

All jobs are bullshit jobs, beyond a certain point. Some are just more obviously so than others.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:38 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
Bullshit jobs can be replaced by something more productive, to everyone's benefit. But I get your point -- there are vested interests who don't want that to happen.

All jobs are bullshit jobs, beyond a certain point. Some are just more obviously so than others.

I blame farming. Once we figured out how to feed ourselves with the efforts of <5% of the population, we were on the slippery slope to Socialites and Cat Behaviour Consultants.

Also, what is "productive" anyway? And why don't we organise ourselves to do more of those things right now? It's not like we're short of people or resources.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:01 am 
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Here's another spanner to throw in the works. If you believe this, 10% of the population are not fit for any job, and never will be ( -- summary points are in first 60 secs):


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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:49 am 
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Eschatologist wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
Bullshit jobs can be replaced by something more productive, to everyone's benefit. But I get your point -- there are vested interests who don't want that to happen.

All jobs are bullshit jobs, beyond a certain point. Some are just more obviously so than others.

I blame farming. Once we figured out how to feed ourselves with the efforts of <5% of the population, we were on the slippery slope to Socialites and Cat Behaviour Consultants.

Also, what is "productive" anyway? And why don't we organise ourselves to do more of those things right now? It's not like we're short of people or resources.


Private companies are generally extremely productive and can restructure to suit the working environment as time changes/things progress. The people that work for these companies are the productive workers. The are not a liability on the public. Government bodies/socialism/welfare etc are all items that or non productive and an expense on the general public. These items are paid for by taxing the private sector - eg the productive economy.
The lower the amount of expenses on the general public, the more money can be diverted to productive businesses etc. The more productive an economy is the wealthier the residents become. Taking Hong Kong for example.
Hong Kong's economic policy has often been cited by economists such as Milton Friedman and the Cato Institute as an example of laissez-faire capitalism, attributing the city's success to the policy.

1 in 7 people in Hong Kong are millionaires with a similar population size. It's a pity Ireland has taken such a socialist approach to things.
The EU (Germany) however seems to be forcing Irelands hand to have less government & liabilities etc, so slowly it'll keep improving.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:49 am 
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I’m a fan of UBI as a way of massively simplifying the tax system & making casual work and the welfare system work together. We’ve already kind of done it in one respect, for children.

At the moment we have tax credits and then a complicated mish mash of if you earn less then this you get that and stuff.

Get rid of the lowest tax credit, give it out as UBI. (Bump up amount so that it’s a good but not huge amount) Reduce welfare payments accordingly. Flat tax at 20% ish from the first penny you earn all the way up to €30-€40k or thereabouts. Higher tax after that.

Most people working casual or part time then know exactly what’s getting deducted from their pay check. The uncertainty of moving away from unemployment benefit is greatly reduced because you’ll always have UBI coming in.


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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:37 am 
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conork wrote:
1 in 7 people in Hong Kong are millionaires with a similar population size.

Average new property price in HK is apparently 1.8m USD. That's probably why they have a lot of "millionaires".

Ireland might achieve the same if it contributes to fuck up its housing market thorough free market fundamentalism coupled with State-of-the-art controlled restrictive planning. That's not socialism.

Anyway, wealth is not a measure of productivity. If I happen to have sat on 1000 bitcoins for a few years I am wealthy but not productive.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:02 am 
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conork wrote:
Private companies are generally extremely productive and can restructure to suit the working environment as time changes/things progress. The people that work for these companies are the productive workers. The are not a liability on the public. Government bodies/socialism/welfare etc are all items that or non productive and an expense on the general public. These items are paid for by taxing the private sector - eg the productive economy.
The lower the amount of expenses on the general public, the more money can be diverted to productive businesses etc. The more productive an economy is the wealthier the residents become. Taking Hong Kong for example.
Hong Kong's economic policy has often been cited by economists such as Milton Friedman and the Cato Institute as an example of laissez-faire capitalism, attributing the city's success to the policy.

Ideological twaddle.
So roads, electrification, health, policing, ports, safety regulation, quality standards are non-productive? Even though they contribute to productivity?

edit: education? Public hygiene? Let's see how the lawless Darfur is getting on with it's excellent capitalism... ah, it's a shithole.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 9:46 pm 
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Here's Stefan Molyneaux talking about Finlands failed experiment with universal basic income

(havnt seen it yet, its on the to watch list)


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