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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:49 am 
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Real Estate Developer

Joined: Jun 10, 2010
Posts: 889
Eschatologist wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
Bullshit jobs can be replaced by something more productive, to everyone's benefit. But I get your point -- there are vested interests who don't want that to happen.

All jobs are bullshit jobs, beyond a certain point. Some are just more obviously so than others.

I blame farming. Once we figured out how to feed ourselves with the efforts of <5% of the population, we were on the slippery slope to Socialites and Cat Behaviour Consultants.

Also, what is "productive" anyway? And why don't we organise ourselves to do more of those things right now? It's not like we're short of people or resources.


Private companies are generally extremely productive and can restructure to suit the working environment as time changes/things progress. The people that work for these companies are the productive workers. The are not a liability on the public. Government bodies/socialism/welfare etc are all items that or non productive and an expense on the general public. These items are paid for by taxing the private sector - eg the productive economy.
The lower the amount of expenses on the general public, the more money can be diverted to productive businesses etc. The more productive an economy is the wealthier the residents become. Taking Hong Kong for example.
Hong Kong's economic policy has often been cited by economists such as Milton Friedman and the Cato Institute as an example of laissez-faire capitalism, attributing the city's success to the policy.

1 in 7 people in Hong Kong are millionaires with a similar population size. It's a pity Ireland has taken such a socialist approach to things.
The EU (Germany) however seems to be forcing Irelands hand to have less government & liabilities etc, so slowly it'll keep improving.

_________________
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Irving Fisher, economist, October 17, 1929 - "Stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau"
Gold and Economic Freedom by Alan Greenspan - 1966
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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:49 am 
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Planning Tribunal Attendee

Joined: Apr 21, 2008
Posts: 1487
I’m a fan of UBI as a way of massively simplifying the tax system & making casual work and the welfare system work together. We’ve already kind of done it in one respect, for children.

At the moment we have tax credits and then a complicated mish mash of if you earn less then this you get that and stuff.

Get rid of the lowest tax credit, give it out as UBI. (Bump up amount so that it’s a good but not huge amount) Reduce welfare payments accordingly. Flat tax at 20% ish from the first penny you earn all the way up to €30-€40k or thereabouts. Higher tax after that.

Most people working casual or part time then know exactly what’s getting deducted from their pay check. The uncertainty of moving away from unemployment benefit is greatly reduced because you’ll always have UBI coming in.


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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:37 am 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 5311
conork wrote:
1 in 7 people in Hong Kong are millionaires with a similar population size.

Average new property price in HK is apparently 1.8m USD. That's probably why they have a lot of "millionaires".

Ireland might achieve the same if it contributes to fuck up its housing market thorough free market fundamentalism coupled with State-of-the-art controlled restrictive planning. That's not socialism.

Anyway, wealth is not a measure of productivity. If I happen to have sat on 1000 bitcoins for a few years I am wealthy but not productive.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:02 am 
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IMF'd

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31801
Location: Tullamore
conork wrote:
Private companies are generally extremely productive and can restructure to suit the working environment as time changes/things progress. The people that work for these companies are the productive workers. The are not a liability on the public. Government bodies/socialism/welfare etc are all items that or non productive and an expense on the general public. These items are paid for by taxing the private sector - eg the productive economy.
The lower the amount of expenses on the general public, the more money can be diverted to productive businesses etc. The more productive an economy is the wealthier the residents become. Taking Hong Kong for example.
Hong Kong's economic policy has often been cited by economists such as Milton Friedman and the Cato Institute as an example of laissez-faire capitalism, attributing the city's success to the policy.

Ideological twaddle.
So roads, electrification, health, policing, ports, safety regulation, quality standards are non-productive? Even though they contribute to productivity?

edit: education? Public hygiene? Let's see how the lawless Darfur is getting on with it's excellent capitalism... ah, it's a shithole.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 9:46 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

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Location: Oighearland
Here's Stefan Molyneaux talking about Finlands failed experiment with universal basic income

(havnt seen it yet, its on the to watch list)


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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:35 am 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 5311
"Molyneux knows how to talk like he knows what he's talking about, despite very little academic research."

Wikipedia quote.

I have no idea what Molyneux's lumbago has to do with the economics of UBI. He's a crank.

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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 11:22 am 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Mar 31, 2009
Posts: 1893
conork wrote:
Private companies are generally extremely productive and can restructure to suit the working environment as time changes/things progress. The people that work for these companies are the productive workers. The are not a liability on the public. Government bodies/socialism/welfare etc are all items that or non productive and an expense on the general public. These items are paid for by taxing the private sector - eg the productive economy.
The lower the amount of expenses on the general public, the more money can be diverted to productive businesses etc. The more productive an economy is the wealthier the residents become.


Wowsa. Thanks for helping me understand why some people freaked out about Obama's 'You didn't build that' speech (which was taken out of context, but still...). (Incidentally, he borrowed the gist of it from Elizabeth Warren)

To paraphrase, publicly-funded schools educated you and/or your staff; roads make distribution of goods possible; courts ensure rule-of-law; emergency services offer security, health..

Hard to believe this has to be spelled out.

I work in the private sector, by the way. I'm fierce productive except when distracted by people who are wrong on the internet.


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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Real Estate Developer

Joined: Jun 10, 2010
Posts: 889
Ixelles wrote:
conork wrote:
Private companies are generally extremely productive and can restructure to suit the working environment as time changes/things progress. The people that work for these companies are the productive workers. The are not a liability on the public. Government bodies/socialism/welfare etc are all items that or non productive and an expense on the general public. These items are paid for by taxing the private sector - eg the productive economy.
The lower the amount of expenses on the general public, the more money can be diverted to productive businesses etc. The more productive an economy is the wealthier the residents become.


Wowsa. Thanks for helping me understand why some people freaked out about Obama's 'You didn't build that' speech (which was taken out of context, but still...). (Incidentally, he borrowed the gist of it from Elizabeth Warren)

To paraphrase, publicly-funded schools educated you and/or your staff; roads make distribution of goods possible; courts ensure rule-of-law; emergency services offer security, health..

Hard to believe this has to be spelled out.

I work in the private sector, by the way. I'm fierce productive except when distracted by people who are wrong on the internet.


I never said these services are not required?

If I have the choice I would rather go to a private school, hospital etc. Why, because staff need to perform and are held accountable.
The most efficient way for these services to be provided is for government too act as an administrator and sub contract the services to private companies. The subbies will grow and shrink to suit demand. Reputation is important for companies.

Don't fool yourself in thinking you're not paying for these services. Half your salary is paying for public services. Imagine you could save that money and choose what school/hospital to send your kids etc.

Nothing more important than the productivity of an economy.

_________________
Jean-Claude Juncker - “We all know what to do, we just don’t know how to get re-elected after we’ve done it.”
Irving Fisher, economist, October 17, 1929 - "Stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau"
Gold and Economic Freedom by Alan Greenspan - 1966
Milton Friedman best moments


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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Old Time Landlord

Joined: Jan 31, 2007
Posts: 360
Location: Middle Earth
Ixelles wrote:
conork wrote:
Private companies are generally extremely productive and can restructure to suit the working environment as time changes/things progress. The people that work for these companies are the productive workers. The are not a liability on the public. Government bodies/socialism/welfare etc are all items that or non productive and an expense on the general public. These items are paid for by taxing the private sector - eg the productive economy.
The lower the amount of expenses on the general public, the more money can be diverted to productive businesses etc. The more productive an economy is the wealthier the residents become.


Wowsa. Thanks for helping me understand why some people freaked out about Obama's 'You didn't build that' speech (which was taken out of context, but still...). (Incidentally, he borrowed the gist of it from Elizabeth Warren)

To paraphrase, publicly-funded schools educated you and/or your staff; roads make distribution of goods possible; courts ensure rule-of-law; emergency services offer security, health..

Hard to believe this has to be spelled out.

I work in the private sector, by the way. I'm fierce productive except when distracted by people who are wrong on the internet.


Maybe it's more of a small/big government argument ? Some things have to be publicly funded and managed (Police, Defence Forces, Courts, Oireachtas,....) but we choose to do this with many other things like hospitals, schools, roads (mostly),... Waste collection is an example of what was once publicly funded and is now private. My electricity bill is smaller now because it's generation and billing is in the private sector - no?

Public sector has extreme inertia - look at collection of road tax and all the physical offices still staffed to post out little pieces of paper that Gardai must check - could simply be replaced with standing orders including the car registration in the meta data, this is collated into a database that ANPR can police and or an app for a Guard with a smartphone.

We need a public sector, no argument. But do we need one as big as the one we have?


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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Neo Landlord

Joined: Sep 9, 2017
Posts: 294
Quote:
In the so-called fourth industrial revolution - characterised by technologies such as robotics, artificial intelligence, biotechnology and 3D printing - workers may not be able to “seamlessly” move to new jobs, nor will many be able to afford to retire in response, Mr Carney warned.
Frictions in labour markets, especially “skills mismatches”, may lead to depressed sectors of the economy and an increase in inequality in this period, before the likely productivity gains can begin to compensate.
Unlike in previous industrial revolutions, the types of jobs that could be affected this time “lie across the entire spectrum of wages”, he said, placing the proportion of jobs at risk of automation in Britain and Ireland at 10-15 per cent.
“Obviously, this is a rough estimate.”


It is not the role of central banks to either prevent or accelerate this expected structural change in the labour market, Mr Carney added, but they do need to acknowledge it when they consider their approach to monetary policy.


https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/bank-of-england-governor-mark-carney-assume-things-will-go-wrong-1.3629205

Governor of the Bank of England flags up this agenda quite regularly now. Including this in today's Dublin speech after his Mansion house speech earlier in the year.


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 Post subject: Re: Universal Basic Income - Who Pays?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:52 am 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Jun 16, 2007
Posts: 2977
Location: Oighearland
those left behind the computerization of their industry, fear NOT.

the govt will expand the NGO sector as controlled opposition and/or facilitaors of nasty dehumanizing legislation to offer everyone a job.

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