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 Post subject: Re: The Social Housing Costs Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:27 am 
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greentree wrote:
Had a builder quote me for a job in Dublin that he had previously done for a friend in Wexford. It was a third more expensive. Ie 100k to 150k. I queried this and his response was that people have more money in Dublin! He was actually serious and couldn't see anything wrong with this...

Given that your housing costs (for a start) are double in Dublin, it's likely that the person with the same job as you in Wexford or wherever has more money.


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 Post subject: Re: The Social Housing Costs Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:15 am 
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Posts: 2739
If you're sitting round the table at the Department of Finance (and thus barely numerate and probably cross eyed ) it makes perfect sense
- the State sold a lot of property at below cost of construction to foreigners as Nama unwound
- to balance the 'other side' of the equation the State must now buy property at above the cost of construction
Simples


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 Post subject: Re: The Social Housing Costs Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:01 am 
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The state would be working against its aims if it bought too cheaply


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 Post subject: Re: The Social Housing Costs Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:03 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Aug 8, 2008
Posts: 3637
Location: Cathair na dTreabh
This website claims that for a house price of €236k.. €76k is taxes. Is that true?
Typical Irish home build costs
Per Unit: Amount:
Site Cost €50k
Build Cost @ €100 psf, Size Average 1,100 = €110k
Roads & Infrastructure €15k
Utility Connections €2k
Legal Fees on Acquisition and Disposal, Marketing, Estate Agency Fees. €6k
Architects, Quantity Surveyors, Consultants, Homebond and Stamp Duty. €2,500
Part V Contributions to social housing €5k
Council Levies ~€10k
Cost of Finance €7,500

Total Costs €208k, VAT @ 13.5% €28k
Sale Price €236k (equivalent French starter home €160,000)


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 Post subject: Re: The Social Housing Costs Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:37 pm 
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The above costs refer to the construction of semi detached units with a density of 8 -10 per acre. We need to move away from considering that crud as being a sustainable form of housing. It isn't.

Victorian and Period housing was typically 30-35 units per acre and the Garden City designs of the 20th Century typically had 20-25 per acre. Higher density produces perfectly desirable housing.

If the State grants a fixed contract to a builder to build 1000 units then the profit margin could be reduced from 17.5% to less than 5%. The economy of scale would hugely reduce the construction costs, material costs, infrastructure provision costs etc. The State already owns the land (or could acquire it for 10k per acre), but this shouldn't be an excuse for constructing masses of ugly sprawl. For social and affordable housing we should be aiming at 30 units per acre, terraced housing (750-800sq ft), mid rise apartments, mixed in with work/live units, larger multi generation units that encourage families to care for elderly family at home and in their community.

There is no shortage of urban design examples from around the world to show how to create desirable housing in healthy communities with good facilities and good prospects. All it takes is a bit of vision.

Affordable housing can easily be provided for €90k per unit including all costs (site, infrastructure contribution etc).


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 Post subject: Re: The Social Housing Costs Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:43 pm 
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Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 899
Coles2 wrote:
Affordable housing can easily be provided for €90k per unit including all costs (site, infrastructure contribution etc).


If you're building a simple apartment block where you're dropping in prefabricated bathrooms etc. then you can probably hit sub 100k levels.

If you're building terraced or semi-detached style properties then it's not possible.

It takes 9-12 months from groundworks to handing over keys for a terraced house, for a cost of 90k with a modest 5k profit, 50k of material, labour would need to be 35k - that's unrealistically low with Irish wage costs and for the number of people and time required.

Also social housing when handed over is expected to have flooring, bathrooms, kitchens fitted, so could have taken more labour than a standard builders finish house.


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 Post subject: Re: The Social Housing Costs Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:07 pm 
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sorehead wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
Affordable housing can easily be provided for €90k per unit including all costs (site, infrastructure contribution etc).

If you're building terraced or semi-detached style properties then it's not possible.

It takes 9-12 months from groundworks to handing over keys for a terraced house, for a cost of 90k with a modest 5k profit, 50k of material, labour would need to be 35k - that's unrealistically low with Irish wage costs and for the number of people and time required.

Also social housing when handed over is expected to have flooring, bathrooms, kitchens fitted, so could have taken more labour than a standard builders finish house.


I can assure you that €90k for 750-800 sqft terraced housing fully finished is easily possible. I build houses and I'm aware of the costs involved.


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 Post subject: Re: The Social Housing Costs Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:59 pm 
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btw.. I wonder whats the story with the project run by architect to work for free on social housing in South Dublin, was it in Shankill ?

The guy was looking for volunteers to build few houses.

_________________
Why it was so windy there?... I am out.

For future reference, a 'soft landing' theorem:
06/2007: Central Bank predicts soft landing for housing
http://www.independent.ie/business/iris ... 96858.html
It's all grand


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 Post subject: Re: The Social Housing Costs Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Joined: Apr 9, 2014
Posts: 2126
Coles2 wrote:
sorehead wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
Affordable housing can easily be provided for €90k per unit including all costs (site, infrastructure contribution etc).

If you're building terraced or semi-detached style properties then it's not possible.

It takes 9-12 months from groundworks to handing over keys for a terraced house, for a cost of 90k with a modest 5k profit, 50k of material, labour would need to be 35k - that's unrealistically low with Irish wage costs and for the number of people and time required.

Also social housing when handed over is expected to have flooring, bathrooms, kitchens fitted, so could have taken more labour than a standard builders finish house.


I can assure you that €90k for 750-800 sqft terraced housing fully finished is easily possible. I build houses and I'm aware of the costs involved.

Ah, but do you build them to current standards?

Ps - does your 90k figure include costs for access roads, electricity and gas connections, vat, development levies, professional fees and finance costs?

And finally, how many houses have you delivered for €90k in the last 36 months?


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 Post subject: Re: The Social Housing Costs Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:38 pm 
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Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 2183
Coles2 wrote:
The above costs refer to the construction of semi detached units with a density of 8 -10 per acre. We need to move away from considering that crud as being a sustainable form of housing. It isn't.

Victorian and Period housing was typically 30-35 units per acre and the Garden City designs of the 20th Century typically had 20-25 per acre. Higher density produces perfectly desirable housing.

If the State grants a fixed contract to a builder to build 1000 units then the profit margin could be reduced from 17.5% to less than 5%. The economy of scale would hugely reduce the construction costs, material costs, infrastructure provision costs etc. The State already owns the land (or could acquire it for 10k per acre), but this shouldn't be an excuse for constructing masses of ugly sprawl. For social and affordable housing we should be aiming at 30 units per acre, terraced housing (750-800sq ft), mid rise apartments, mixed in with work/live units, larger multi generation units that encourage families to care for elderly family at home and in their community.


What are the economies of scale in construction? You get (I guess) a bit of savings on procurement. But you cannot really speed up the process of laying blocks, or pouring concrete or plumbing.

For the rest, particularly going for bigger densities, I fully agree.


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