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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:05 pm 
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owenm wrote:
But we won't all be recharging at an average rate, we will all start recharging as we get home from work in the evening. Peak demand is what matters here.

I might be considered a crank but my objections are based on physics. The infrastructure cost of upgrading most of the end point substations is going to be considerable, and I do believe it will be necessary.

Also the raw materials for lithium batteries as used by the model 3 don't exist on earth, I'm talking about cobalt. The planet only has enough to convert the UK to ev's over the next 30 years with lithium batteries, so this is my basis for thinking Tesla is doomed unless it has a magic new battery type.

I also have a problem with charging batteries from electricity from gas, burning gas to charge a battery instead of burning petrol is madness and in no way helping the planet. Every conversion has a loss and gas to electric to lithium has an extra conversion which increases co2 emissions.

How many power cuts in the next 10 years, none. The limiting factor of cobalt supply will see that ev's are only gradually introduced, substations will be upgraded at the same time as well as low capacity chargers in workplaces. I predict low capacity chargers in workplaces because nobody is going to let a couple of hundred employees plug in the equivalent of 3 kettles each for 8 hours every day in the car park, whether they are paying for it or not.

http://www.infomine.com/investment/meta ... lt/5-year/

https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/01/no-cobalt-no-tesla/


thanks owenm for the responses.

The electricty generation and distribution network will no doubt evolve. though at a time with increased demand being put on the network especially the push to roll out electric vehicles, that it is odd that two power plants are being shutdown/taken offline. The electricity has to be generated somehow to power electric cars.

The high speed chargers are the equivalent of powering 3 toasters, designing a power supply to even power eight toasters going at it full blast is not for the faint-hearted. If we end up with 2 million electric vehicles then we need to have a power system that can deliver 6 GW of juice. the system demand at the moment is 5.2 GW http://ercrt.ucd.ie/

The cost of fuel for 200 km journey in an electric car is €5 , whereas for petrol its €20. Does anyone think that the taxes on petrol/diesel wont be transferred to electricity?

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Thing Fish wrote:
The cost of fuel for 200 km journey in an electric car is €5 , whereas for petrol its €20. Does anyone think that the taxes on petrol/diesel wont be transferred to electricity?

This is practically/politically difficult since there's no way to differentiate between different uses of electricity.

It makes more sense to apply the taxes to generation where the fuel sources can be discriminated.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Thing Fish wrote:
The cost of fuel for 200 km journey in an electric car is €5 , whereas for petrol its €20. Does anyone think that the taxes on petrol/diesel wont be transferred to electricity?

This is practically/politically difficult since there's no way to differentiate between different uses of electricity.

It makes more sense to apply the taxes to generation where the fuel sources can be discriminated.

That won't make any difference as far as the consumer is concerned. Electricity supply is an integrated market. If expensive electricity has to be purchased by the retail suppliers (whether or not that expense is due to high taxes on "dirty" generators), the costs will get passed on to end consumers.

There's a much simpler objection though. Government will not forego the revenue currently raised from fuel taxes. It will tax whatever it needs to in order to make up a shortfall from declining ICE usage.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:05 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Thing Fish wrote:
The cost of fuel for 200 km journey in an electric car is €5 , whereas for petrol its €20. Does anyone think that the taxes on petrol/diesel wont be transferred to electricity?

This is practically/politically difficult since there's no way to differentiate between different uses of electricity.

It makes more sense to apply the taxes to generation where the fuel sources can be discriminated.

That won't make any difference as far as the consumer is concerned. Electricity supply is an integrated market. If expensive electricity has to be purchased by the retail suppliers (whether or not that expense is due to high taxes on "dirty" generators), the costs will get passed on to end consumers.

There's a much simpler objection though. Government will not forego the revenue currently raised from fuel taxes. It will tax whatever it needs to in order to make up a shortfall from declining ICE usage.

But it may not be able to tax electric car usage specifically, so it's either 1k a year road tax for EVs (which goes completely against the supposed principles of the current regime) or they'll have to find it from non-motoring taxes.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
...so it's either 1k a year road tax for EVs (which goes completely against the supposed principles of the current regime)...

I think the key word there is supposed. :D

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Thing Fish wrote:
thanks owenm for the responses.

But he has been wrong about pretty much everything

Thing Fish wrote:
The high speed chargers are the equivalent of powering 3 toasters, designing a power supply to even power eight toasters going at it full blast is not for the faint-hearted.

But its clearly not as hard as the naysayers claim, the video below shows the largest Tesla Supercharger in Norway, 20 stalls, China has a 50 stall charger, Tesla already have 8 stall Superchargers in Ireland, they must not be faint-hearted



Thing Fish wrote:
If we end up with 2 million electric vehicles then we need to have a power system that can deliver 6 GW of juice. the system demand at the moment is 5.2 GW http://ercrt.ucd.ie/

It will be a long time before we reach 2 million EVs on the road, it won't be a problem

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:58 pm 
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the dude wrote:
It will be a long time before we reach 2 million EVs on the road, it won't be a problem

Some people would call that sort of handwaving at the inevitability of progress "naive technological optimism".

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Thing Fish wrote:
The cost of fuel for 200 km journey in an electric car is €5 , whereas for petrol its €20. Does anyone think that the taxes on petrol/diesel wont be transferred to electricity?

This is practically/politically difficult since there's no way to differentiate between different uses of electricity.

It makes more sense to apply the taxes to generation where the fuel sources can be discriminated.

With all the technology available and the fact that most EVs appear to have gps systems and internet connectivity, it's a simple move to log journeys and "road price" them.
Plus simple to to make it mandatory to install such tracking devices in all future vehicles.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:26 pm 
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dolanbaker wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Thing Fish wrote:
The cost of fuel for 200 km journey in an electric car is €5 , whereas for petrol its €20. Does anyone think that the taxes on petrol/diesel wont be transferred to electricity?

This is practically/politically difficult since there's no way to differentiate between different uses of electricity.

It makes more sense to apply the taxes to generation where the fuel sources can be discriminated.

With all the technology available and the fact that most EVs appear to have gps systems and internet connectivity, it's a simple move to log journeys and "road price" them.
Plus simple to to make it mandatory to install such tracking devices in all future vehicles.

I presume you're kidding. First you have to standardise them. Then you have to make them tamper proof. Then you have to deal with the civil liberties people screaming blue murder about trackability. Doable, maybe. Simple it definitely isn't.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:50 pm 
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dolanbaker wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Thing Fish wrote:
The cost of fuel for 200 km journey in an electric car is €5 , whereas for petrol its €20. Does anyone think that the taxes on petrol/diesel wont be transferred to electricity?

This is practically/politically difficult since there's no way to differentiate between different uses of electricity.

It makes more sense to apply the taxes to generation where the fuel sources can be discriminated.

With all the technology available and the fact that most EVs appear to have gps systems and internet connectivity, it's a simple move to log journeys and "road price" them.
Plus simple to to make it mandatory to install such tracking devices in all future vehicles.

Tolls are simple. Incidentally rather than automatically tracking

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:51 pm 
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There's a much easier to charge for km driven (regardless of vehicle type -- you could do it today for ICE cars). NCT already records odometer readings annually. Simply compute the road tax due at the time of NCT.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:57 pm 
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Mantissa wrote:
There's a much easier to charge for km driven (regardless of vehicle type -- you could do it today for ICE cars). NCT already records odometer readings annually. Simply compute the road tax due at the time of NCT.

And every car would be clocked before the NCT

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:22 am 
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Surely there must be a way to fit a device to a vehicle showing how much Electricity it has used over period, then just charge a higher rate of tax for the corresponding amount of electricity used.


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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:27 am 
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We only tax vehicle fuel indiscriminately because it's convenient to do so. A discriminating system would probably attempt to discourage congestion or attempt some other sort of behaviour change, but the most likely solution is the thing that requires the least technology to implement and provokes the least popular resistance.

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 Post subject: Re: why isn't electricity cheaper
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:10 pm 
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the dude wrote:
Thing Fish wrote:
thanks owenm for the responses.

But he has been wrong about pretty much everything

Thing Fish wrote:
The high speed chargers are the equivalent of powering 3 toasters, designing a power supply to even power eight toasters going at it full blast is not for the faint-hearted.

But its clearly not as hard as the naysayers claim, the video below shows the largest Tesla Supercharger in Norway, 20 stalls, China has a 50 stall charger, Tesla already have 8 stall Superchargers in Ireland, they must not be faint-hearted



Thing Fish wrote:
If we end up with 2 million electric vehicles then we need to have a power system that can deliver 6 GW of juice. the system demand at the moment is 5.2 GW http://ercrt.ucd.ie/

It will be a long time before we reach 2 million EVs on the road, it won't be a problem


I was wrong that Lithium ev's couldn't be made without cobalt, I stand corrected. They are however not as good as one's without. My other two points are still valid. Namely that subsidies and hidden costs don't make it cheaper and that burning carbon to produce electricity to charge batteries that push EV's doesn't reduce carbon footprint, or if it does then it is marginal and not a game changer. EV's do have a future but we won't all be driving Tesla's in 5 or even 50 years and have saved the planet unless cobalt free batteries are used and most of our electricity is from renewables.

It makes just as much sense to produce octane from renewable electricity and use that in an ICE, no grid upgrades or charging stations and less co2 from production and destruction of cars without batteries, but that's just blue sky thinking.
https://www.geek.com/news/german-compan ... 2-1609987/


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